Someday My Psychopath Will Come…

September 5, 2012

Promiscuity is often linked to maladaptive personality traits. Hare’s Psychopathy Checklist includes it in two of its 20 items:

11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR — a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.The Dark Triad traits of narcissism, Machiavellianism, and sociopathy are linked to a short-term mating orientation, resulting in more sexual partners but poor relationships.

17. MANY SHORT-TERM RELATIONSHIPS — a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.

There is also considerable research correlating promiscuity to the personality traits of low agreeableness and low conscientiousness. Extraverted, impulsive, and sensation-seeking personalities predict:

  • Multiple sexual partners
  • Unprotected sex
  • Intoxicated sex
  • No-strings sex

New research by psychologists Dr. Martin Sellbom and his doctoral student Rebecca M. Kastner at the University of Alabama explores the boundaries further by examining psychopathy above and beyond personality traits relative to sexual behavior (Hat tip: J). In Hypersexuality in college students: The role of psychopathy, Sellbom and Kastner looked at the link between psychopathy and hypersexuality in 393 undergraduate students. Using the Psychopathy Personality Inventory (PPI), which has been found valid in criminal, community and college settings, the researchers looked at two particular aspects of psychopathic behavior.

1. Fearless Dominance

  • Charming
  • Grandiose
  • Eager to take risks with little regard for consequences
  • Absence of anxiety

2. Impulsive Antisociality

  • Reckless disregard for safety of self and others
  • Aggressive
  • Impulsive
  • Blames others for personal misfortunes
  • Uses others for personal gain

(Note how closely these descriptions align with the Charming Sociopath and Brooding Loner of my previous post.)

Per the study, previous findings:

  1. Theoretical underpinnings for the link between psychopathy and hypersexuality include an underactive behavior inhibition system (BIS), which would lead to a failure of behavior regulation, including inhibiting sexual behavior in potential threatening contexts (e.g., Hughes, Moore, Morris, & Corr, 2012). 
  2. Psychopathy has been associated with promiscuous sexual relations at a young age for both men and women (Visser, Pozzebon, Bogaert, & Ashton, 2010).
  3. Impulsivity/irresponsibility were significant predictors of risky sexual behavior in adolescents, particularly girls (Rucevic, 2010).
  4. In a sample of college students, Jonason, Li, Webster, and Schmitt (2009) found that psychopathy was related to an exploitative social style measured by several aspects of hypersexuality including sociosexuality, number of sex partners, seeking a short-term mate, and short-term mating. 
  5. Primary psychopathy (callousness, charm, egocentrism) in both men and women is associated with coercion to gain short-term sexual partners (Fulton et al., 2010; Muñoz, Khan, & Cordwell, 2011). 
  6. Gender differences on indicators of social dominance (high social dominance in men; low social dominance in women) have been shown to predict infidelity in a community sample (Egan & Angus, 2004). 

The contribution of the current study was an investigation of the link between Fearless Dominance (FD) and Impulsive Antisociality (IA) to hypersexuality. Sellbom and Kastner looked at the correlation between the PPI and numerous other personality and sexuality inventories. Of particular interest was the Sociosexuality Orientation Inventory. The SOI is of great interest to me here at HUS, because it measures a person’s attitudes towards sexual behavior and reliably predicts that behavior. The ability to predict promiscuous behavior is obviously of critical importance in selecting a partner.

The construct of sociosexuality or sociosexual orientation captures individual differences in the tendency to have casual, uncommitted sexual relationships. 

…[The SOI] assesses sociosexual orientations along a single dimension from “restricted” (indicating a tendency to have sex exclusively in emotionally close and committed relationships) to “unrestricted” (indicating a tendency for sexual relationships with low commitment and investment, often after short periods of acquaintance and with changing partners).

On average, men tend to be more unrestricted than women in their sociosexual orientations, though there are also large individual differences within both sexes (Schmitt, 2005).

The current study looked at the following SOI factors:

1. Number of sexual partners in the past year

2. Number of sexual partners in the next 5 years

3. Number of one time sexual partners

4. Number of partners used condom with

5. Number of times fantasized about someone other than partner

6. Sex without love is OK

7. Enjoy casual sex with different partners

8. Need to be attached to partner to enjoy sex (reversed) 

The Findings

The current findings indicate that psychopathy adds to the prediction of hypersexuality above and beyond sensation seeking, antisociality, and impulsivity. Both factors offer unique prediction of hypersexuality; however, IA was generally a stronger predictor than FD. For risky sexual behavior in particular, an interaction effect for the factors was significant; thus, high scores on both FD and IA predict higher levels of hypersexuality than either factor individually. In other words, individuals who are fearless, interpersonally assertive, egocentric, exploitative, and impulsive are especially prone to engaging in sexual behavior with potentially harmful consequences. 

…There is something about the maladaptive constellation of psychopathic personality traits that afford particularly high risk for dangerous sexual practices.

Both facets of psychopathy were predictive of these various processes with the exception of sexual inhibition. Impulsive-Antisociality was generally the better predictor, which is not unexpected because this psychopathy facet tends to be associated with overt behavioral outcomes in general, including the inability to delay gratification and lack of careful consider- ation of consequences (e.g., Benning et al., 2005a).  

Interestingly, they found that while most people experience some sexual inhibition due to the threat of performance failure, the presence of Fearless Dominance hampered inhibition. “Individuals high on this psychopathy facet might be particularly prone to seek out thrilling, dangerous, and otherwise anxiety provoking sexual situations.” This is in keeping with the testimonials of various promiscuous men online, who generally display strong immunity to feelings of failure or rejection.

Psychopathy in the Population

Futurist and ethicist George Dvorsky notes that psychopathy results from dysfunction in the amygdala. It’s estimated that 1-2% of individuals are psychopaths, and 3-5% of people in business are!

Scientists have determined that there is a genetic component to psychopathy. They argue that genetic factors may generally influence the development of psychopathy while environmental factors affect the specific traits that predominate. Geneticists have calculated that the heritability coefficient for psychopathy is around 50%.

Psychologist Robert Hare has argued that psychopathy does indeed have a genetic component. He has observed how many (male) psychopaths have a pattern of mating with, and quickly abandoning women, and as a result, have a high fertility rate. His contention is that these children may inherit a predisposition to psychopathy.

It seems reasonable to hypothesize that the current SMP, with its culture of casual sex, comprises a strong environmental factor that creates or exacerbates psychopathy in both men and women.

Evolutionary psychologists theorize that psychopathy represents a frequency-dependent, socially parasitic strategy. This may only work, however, as long as there are few other psychopaths in the community. More psychopaths means that there’s an increased risk of encountering another psychopath as well as non-psychopaths likely adapting more countermeasures against cheaters.

That said, this “social parasite” theory doesn’t take into account the ways in which psychopaths can be successful in modern society. It might be an increasingly adaptive trait. As already noted, there’s a heightened tendency for psychopaths to enter into the business world. Similarly, there’s the (potentially) increased likelihood for political success.

It’s also quite possible that humans are evolving away from psychopathy. Perhaps the 1-2% is the smallest proportion yet in our species’ history. It’s generally thought, for example, that women are selecting for kinder, gentler males. This self-domestication has resulted in an increase in empathetic traits over time. It’s quite possible that we’re the “kindest” version ever to appear in our evolutionary trajectory.

The Bottom Line

Not all psychopaths are sexy, and not all sexy people are psychopaths, but the link to promiscuity is significant. I advise both sexes to avoid promiscuous partners. Even if you can live with their body count, they’ve likely got other maladaptive qualities that make them deficient in forming and sustaining relationships. Using the 8 sociosexuality orientation criteria above would be an excellent proxy for identifying psychopathy in both sexes. 

The researchers end their paper by recommending identifying at-risk individuals in an attempt to “decrease behaviors that are unhealthy for themselves or others.” I have some suggestions as to where these psychopaths may be found on campus. 🙂

You’ve been warned. Proceed with the Brooding Loner or Charming Sociopath at your own risk.

Many thanks to Dr. Martin Sellbom, who graciously provided the study gratis at my request. 

  • Passer_By

    Does Dr. Hare have any tips on how one can raise his level of psychopathy? I think I could use of boost of all that. Maybe cocaine would do it.

    • @Passer By

      Does Dr. Hare have any tips on how one can raise his level of psychopathy? I think I could use of boost of all that. Maybe cocaine would do it.

      You are a joy to have around PB, you always make me laugh.

      Maybe we’ll learn that psychopaths smell different. I’ll bottle the pheromones and sell them as “Essence of Psychopath – Only the Good Parts.” Or maybe just James Bond cologne.

      That guy Dvorsky (the futurist) sees a time when psychopathy is “cured” with pharmaceuticals and or amygdala surgery. He also anticipates that when the genes are isolated there will be prenatal tests to let parents know their unborn child is a psychopath. Isn’t that chilling?

      Also, apparently Zoloft alleviates some psychopathic behaviors, while behavioral therapies make it much worse.

  • Do they know if the psychopathy is on X or Y? I mean a male psychopath will have daughters that will pass it on to her children or is just the male offspring?

    • Do they know if the psychopathy is on X or Y? I mean a male psychopath will have daughters that will pass it on to her children or is just the male offspring?

      I don’t believe they’ve isolated the genes yet. They have just looked at the brain activity and structure of psychopaths and found key differences. I do know that both males and females can be psychopaths. There were only minor sex differences in the study, which I pointed out in the post.

  • “1. Fearless Dominance

    Charming
    Grandiose
    Eager to take risks with little regard for consequences
    Absence of anxiety”

    I’ve studied these people for some ten years now. I know some. This is why I believe that Alpha Cads are charming on the surface, which covers up their feelings of shame and humiliation. It’s why I’ve seen cads ultimately allow themselves to be abused by women (it’s become a cliche’ about the really dominant guy regularly visiting a dominatrix).

    These Game-playing PUA are not admirable. Every one of them I know has severely damaged his life.

    I have also seen the same damaging effects on women.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Pretty much agree with all of this

  • Passer_By

    Bob sounds just like Escoffier sounded when he first showed up in the ‘sphere about a year or two ago. lol

  • Senior Beta

    I dunno Bob, from his blog it looks like Roosh is having a pretty good time.

  • Sai

    Good job listing the qualities we all need to run away from really fast.

  • @Uncle Bob

    That seems a startlingly simplistic summary of what is, without a doubt, a very complex and sophisticated mating strategy. Yes, I said “mating strategy”, and not an unsuccessful one. I’ve studied these dudes for years myself, and know plenty who haven’t “destroyed their lives” — on the contrary, they’re often some of the most successful and creative people I know.

    The Dark Triad traits are, indeed, well known as “psychopathic”, but remember that much of the determination of metrics for studies like this are highly subjective and subject to investigator bias. And, apparently, reader bias. I think a lot of cultural baggage has to be jettisoned before any meaningful understanding of these folks can happen — condemning them out-of-hand because you do not share their values or their priorities seems unfair. They have pursued their course of action for very definite reasons, in my experience, often extremely compelling reasons.

    But perhaps we hang around different classes of PUA…

    • The Dark Triad traits are, indeed, well known as “psychopathic”, but remember that much of the determination of metrics for studies like this are highly subjective and subject to investigator bias.

      The Psychopathic Personality Inventory is a highly validated and respected instrument. It is equally accurate for incarcerated criminals and college students.

      The PPI was developed by psychologists Scott Lilienfeld (now at Emory University) and Brian Andrews to comprehensively index the personality traits without assuming particular links to anti-social or criminal behaviors.

      The PPI was revised in 2005 to become the PPI-R (Lilienfeld & Widows) and now comprises 154 items organized into eight subscales. The item scores have generally been found to group into two overarching and largely separate factors, plus a third factor which is mainly dependent on scores on the other two:

      I: Fearless dominance. Involving social influence, fearlessness, stress immunity.

      II: Impulsive antisociality/selfishness. Involving ‘Machiavellian’ egocentricity, Rebellious nonconformity, Blame externalization, Carefree lack of planning.

      III: Coldheartedness.

      A person may score at different levels on the different factors, but the overall score indicates the global extent of psychopathic personality. Higher scores on factor I are actually associated with emotional stability and social efficacy, as well as reduced empathy. Scores on factor II are more associated with maladaptive tendencies — including aggressiveness, substance use problems, negative feelings and suicidal ideation.

      As Dvorsky points out, and Hare jokes about, psychopathy can be a highly effective strategy for social advancement, both professionally and in mating. It does not, however, allow for healthy relationships. Psychopaths are strictly loading zone people – don’t even think of parking there.

  • Antitype

    It’s hard to escape sociopathy if you want to succeed or even survive the current dating market. Even if you don’t start out that way.

    I’m an inherently kind person, and eventually the observational data about how women disrespect average, genuine people and lap up alpha behavior became to great to ignore. So I started acting like a jerk. And I didn’t study game, I don’t research negs, or push-pull, or anything like that. I just adopted a simple frame of mind around which to base my behavior and interaction: A woman isn’t worh 15 seconds of thought or worth spending the price of a cup of coffee on.

    Now I view women as completely interchangable and unremarkable. Getting turned down by one is meaningless, because there’s nothing special about her as a person. She’s completely replaceable by the next person of equal attractiveness I see. Women are barely people in my eyes anymore.

    Positive reinforcement of success with women reinforced my cynicism so profoundly, that I’ve basically lost the ability to respect the gender and create fulfilling relationships. I know too much about how women work to consider them as equals in terms of character, virtue, honor, etc.

    By chasing success with women, I essentially became a sociopath.

    • @Antitype

      By chasing success with women, I essentially became a sociopath.

      Thanks for your honesty, that’s a very sobering account. For men especially, it seems all so clear up front. Want sex? Hell yeah! Then all that casual sex warps you. I don’t know if guys like you who aren’t naturally (genetically) sociopathic can hit the reset button somehow. If there was any chance I do think it would involve going cold turkey on that behavior. Then again, perhaps you like your life now and don’t care about the relationships. If so, then you really have succeeded in fully converting.

  • Antitype

    I should clarify, I’ve never hurt a woman or done anything without consent. And I’ve never thought about hurting a woman.

    I should also say, not all people react the same way as me. Many are happy to just live in the moment and enjoy all the pussy they’re getting. But I’m fairly cerebral, and it never escapes me exactly what kind of behavior I’m putting out there, and how women are happy to treat men with genuine interest like crap in pursuit of detached, uncaring people like me.

    So the cynicism snowballs with every close.

    For some, others, success with women actually breeds more misogyny than they felt when they were unsuccessful. Because at least when they’re unsuccessful they’re confused or blissfully ignorant.

  • Mike M.

    What bugs me is that sociopaths are often NOT Alpha. Cheap bragging is one thing. The people who’ve actually DONE great things are often pretty humble about it.

  • @Ian Underwood

    “That seems a startlingly simplistic summary of what is, without a doubt, a very complex and sophisticated mating strategy”

    All serial killers are psychopaths. They torture, mutilate, and murder dozens. Sometimes they are necrophiliacs and cannibals. They’re monsters.

    These people today are imprisoned for life or else executed.

    Contrary to the hallucinations of evo-psych and the ignorant in the Manosphere, these people weren’t leaders or soldiers in the past or today – they were killed.

    Where exactly do you think the legend of the werewolf came from? From people finding victims torn to shreds by psychopathic serial killers.

    Very complex and sophisticated mating strategy.

    A very complex

  • Antitype

    @Bob Wallace

    We still imprison and execute psychopaths. They just have access to fan-mail, marriage proposals, and erotic fan-fiction from their female admirers in prison these days.

    • They just have access to fan-mail, marriage proposals, and erotic fan-fiction from their female admirers in prison these days.

      I think they always did. Bad guys have always had their admirers. Women thought this guy was dreamy:

      tb

      Answer: Ted Bundy

      Bundy was regarded as handsome and charismatic by his young female victims, traits he exploited in winning their trust. He typically approached them in public places, feigning an injury or disability, or impersonating an authority figure, before overpowering and assaulting them at a more secluded location. He sometimes revisited his secondary crime scenes for hours at a time, grooming and performing sexual acts with the decomposing corpses until putrefaction and destruction by wild animals made further interaction impossible. He decapitated at least 12 victims and kept some of the severed heads in his apartment for a period of time as mementos. On a few occasions he simply broke into dwellings in the dead of night and bludgeoned victims as they slept.

      …During the penalty phase of the trial, Bundy took advantage of an obscure Florida law providing that a marriage declaration in court in the presence of a judge constituted a legal marriage. As he was questioning former Washington State DES coworker Carole Ann Boone—who had moved to Florida to be near Bundy, had testified on his behalf during both trials, and was again testifying on his behalf as a character witness—he asked her to marry him. She accepted, and Bundy declared to the court that they were legally married.

      On February 10, 1980 Bundy was sentenced to death by electrocution for a third time. As the sentence was announced he reportedly stood and shouted, “Tell the jury they were wrong!” This third death sentence would be the one ultimately carried out more than nine years later.

      In October 1982 Boone gave birth to a daughter and named Bundy as the father. While conjugal visits were not allowed at Raiford Prison, inmates were known to pool their money to bribe guards to allow them intimate time alone with their female visitors.

  • I’ve studied these dudes for years myself, and know plenty who haven’t “destroyed their lives” — on the contrary, they’re often some of the most successful and creative people I know.

    Do you have any information if they destroyed other people’s lives pursuing their mating strategy?
    Also IME psychopaths don’t realize the damage their done as long as their dicks get hard. Passing Andropause there is a lot of regret in their lives if they don’t get killed before that is, YMMV.

  • Deli

    2 Anacaona September 5, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Please consult “The Mask of Sanity” by Hervey Cleckley, first book to introduce the term “psychopath” and to discuss actual cases.
    The thing your are looking are patient #2 (named Roberta) and patient #6 (named Anna) So it is definitely not a male only thing.

    The descriptions are quaint (this is a 1941 book after all) – certainly no axe murderers there – but then again these are the women, whose psychopathy was so pronounced, that in the world where there was no such notion as “psychopathy” AT ALL they were still recognized as insane.

    And yes, you can see connection between psychopathy and sex in the book.
    Roberta was a prostitute for a short time – becoming one out of convenience to support herself why she stayed in a city where she had no relatives or friends. She did not reflect this decision as anything significant in her life – it was not a hard choice or a vicious jab at her family for wronging her – it was convenience.
    Anna’s history of psychopathy started with an a college boy club in which she willingly and freely had sex with the boys that were part of the club.

    So yes, psychopathy. The charming allure of a person, who is medically proven to have no feelings and no empathy whatsoever, and who can shove a butter knife in your throat our of sheer curiosity of “I wonder how silver looks on crimson”
    You know, fun times.

  • VD

    I essentially became a sociopath.

    It’s not possible. Sociopaths are born, not made. I know, I’m related to at least one, possibly two. If you’ve read any of Hare’s work, then you’ll learn there is no overlap between the PUA using Game and the genuine sociopath, even though the PUA will adopt some of the sociopath’s tactics. Sociopaths will shamelessly lie about absolutely crazy things they cannot possibly conceal and take absolutely crazy risks that no sane individual could rationalize. They are charming and intense because there is no person inside, they are all surface impressions and short-term impulses.

    This is why I believe that Alpha Cads are charming on the surface, which covers up their feelings of shame and humiliation.

    You don’t know what you’re talking about. Sociopaths feel no shame. They can’t be humiliated. You can catch them in the most absurd lie, and they will shrug it off with a smile and a complete absence of remorse. There is a reason Hare’s book is called “The Mask of Sanity”. They’re not sane people and they have zero empathy. It is this lack of empathy that permits them to lie so shamelessly and so successfully. The Dark Triad is extremely attractive to women taken in combination, but most of the negative behavior stems from the sociopathy aspect. And if you have one in your life, your best bet is to cut them out of it as soon and as completely as possible. They leave devastation in their wake.

    The best way to identify them is if you have the sense the person is a black hole. They can literally never get enough. If a guy is WAY too into you in far too short a period of time, this is a red flag.

  • Antitype

    @VD

    Fair enough. I did say essentially, not literally.

  • Please consult “The Mask of Sanity” by Hervey Cleckley, first book to introduce the term “psychopath” and to discuss actual cases.
    The thing your are looking are patient #2 (named Roberta) and patient #6 (named Anna) So it is definitely not a male only thing.

    Oops sorry of course females can be too. I just have more experience with the male side of the equation. Thanks for the book. It seems familiar though I might had read it already but probably didn’t finished though as much as is a fascinating subject some things are too out of my tiny brain to relate.

  • And if you have one in your life, your best bet is to cut them out of it as soon and as completely as possible. They leave devastation in their wake.

    My life improved 1000 times when I cut my psychopath of a brother out of it for good like 12 years ago, my husband has never meet him and with luck never will. Every single member of the family that has stayed in contact is always in trouble because of him and getting him out of trouble. He plays the “Please help me I will do better next time it was someone’s else’s fault” card so well…and he had been doing that since he was 4. Is amazing if you don’t have to deal with it that is.

  • Infantry

    Years ago in my PUA days I came across a few sociopaths. Extremely charismatic, impulsive and reckless. Obviously got laid like tile, but there was an emptiness. Like looking into a cats eyes.

    One guy at a lair meeting once (yes, I went to these; don’t laugh) talked about wanting to turn his girls into prostitutes by first palming them off to his friends at parties and then slowly turning them via drugs. It was a pure power trip for him. My friends and I were truly sickened and avoided him and his cronies after that.

    It reminds me that game truely is amoral. I made a friend at that lair who had vowed to remain a virgin until marriage while still learning game to find ‘The One’ and then I met psychos like the above.

  • Or maybe just James Bond cologne.

    Hey! I resent that! Mr Bond might be a shameless womanizer but he never killed innocent people just to see what it looks like. He was at his majesty service and was trained to kill only when necessary for a mission and even though he probably has all the STD’s available to humankind, and two that only can be found on sharks, he provides a good service to humanity by getting rid of world threats and real psychopaths, YMMV.

    *Bondgirlhatsoff*

  • Like looking into a cats eyes.
    *facepalm* You never had a cat had you?
    Is today the day to insult Ana’s favorite things? I’m waiting for a Twilight insult in 3…2…1… :p

  • Antitype

    @Infantry

    It’s true, having a woman do things she’s not particularly comfortable with simply because she’s so attracted to you (or in love with you… whatever her vagina has convinced her brain to think) is a power trip.

    Power trips aren’t inherently bad though. The only reason I’m invested in giving women I have sex with orgasms is the power trip of knowing I could make their body do what I wanted.

  • Deli

    Yeah, it’s a bit sad when names for personality disorders become badges that cool kids pin on their waists.

    People go around bragging how they are sociopaths, psychopaths or have Ausperger syndrom. To me this is about as moral as claiming to be a cancer survivor.

    Especially when people with real PDs had to go through shit like this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfozinum

  • Jackie

    @Bob Wallace
    “I’ve studied these people for some ten years now. I know some. This is why I believe that Alpha Cads are charming on the surface, which covers up their feelings of shame and humiliation.”

    Bob, what do you know about NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder– though it may be renamed through the last DSM-IV)?

    I ask because I see a lot of overlap between the characteristics described between psychopaths and clinical narcissists: Lack of remorse, delusions of grandeur, habitual lying; basically they leave their victims’ psyches a destroyed wasteland.

    But whereas psychopaths have no “there” there, Ns have a false self that is rather dazzling and purposely created to cover up their epic shame and humiliation.

    Sam Vaknin (_Malignant Narcissism_– fascinating book) has a lot of YouTubes that briefly analyze facets of NPD. He is also completely upfront about being a narcissist, so he is a fitting study for his self-obsession; like a snake eating its own tail, to use a gross metaphor.

    In many ways, PUAs are a textbook case for these; they develop a false self right down to the point of giving it a name (Mystery, Style, etc). Their actions and words are studied, rehearsed, practiced and utterly inauthentic. I think Ricky Raw has a great analysis of this, if you are interested, on his blog.

  • Antitype

    @Susan

    I’ve tried that before, but there are two problems.

    1) Awareness. Even if I’m not pursuing women, I’m still aware of what’s around me. I see the men they’re clamoring for, the ones they’re treating like crap. That’d they’d prefer to be one type of man’s toy in a club bathroom one night than entertain the affection of somebody that really admires them (or some part of them). That in of itself is enough to keep the cynicism about female character alive and well.

    2) Is there any better incentive or mode of positive reinforcement than orgasm?

    • @Antitype

      That’d they’d prefer to be one type of man’s toy in a club bathroom one night

      Have you ever considered pursuing women who don’t go to clubs and put out for randos? NAWALT.

      Is there any better incentive or mode of positive reinforcement than orgasm?

      IDK, maybe not for a man. I can recall some orgasms I had that felt terrible, in the sense that the relationship was wrong, or effed up, or over. Having an orgasm then made me feel awful. I recall hooking up with an ex a few years down the road, and afterward I just wept. He couldn’t understand it, he thought it was great. I thought it was hollow and empty and sad. His body, so familiar, a body I had loved, now older, more mature, meaning nothing to me. I didn’t ever want to feel that again, so I cut off all contact.

  • Jackie

    @Antitype
    “Women are barely people in my eyes anymore.”
    =====
    Even your mom and sisters? 🙁

  • Antitype

    @Deli

    Male worth in today’s society is measured by the amount of high-end pussy you score.

    Sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists score pussy, and people see it. So obviously, they become the badges of honor, the titles associated with success. Simply put, those words have sex appeal.*

    Were male worth dictated by other means, or were high-end pussy secured less consistently by those without the hallmarks of anti-social dispositions, they wouldn’t have that sex appeal, and the words would instill fear and disgust instead of excitement.

    *for the vast majority of the population, since none of them have had their lives significantly impacted by one.

  • @ Bob Wallace #12

    All serial killers are psychopaths. They torture, mutilate, and murder dozens. Sometimes they are necrophiliacs and cannibals. They’re monsters.

    These people today are imprisoned for life or else executed.

    Contrary to the hallucinations of evo-psych and the ignorant in the Manosphere, these people weren’t leaders or soldiers in the past or today – they were killed.

    How do you explain Klebold & Harris ; George Sodini ; Seung-Hui Cho ; and James Holmes ?

    Were they the same ?

  • INTJ

    @ Antitype

    It’s hard to escape sociopathy if you want to succeed or even survive the current dating market. Even if you don’t start out that way.

    I’m an inherently kind person, and eventually the observational data about how women disrespect average, genuine people and lap up alpha behavior became to great to ignore. So I started acting like a jerk. And I didn’t study game, I don’t research negs, or push-pull, or anything like that. I just adopted a simple frame of mind around which to base my behavior and interaction: A woman isn’t worh 15 seconds of thought or worth spending the price of a cup of coffee on.

    Now I view women as completely interchangable and unremarkable. Getting turned down by one is meaningless, because there’s nothing special about her as a person. She’s completely replaceable by the next person of equal attractiveness I see. Women are barely people in my eyes anymore.

    Positive reinforcement of success with women reinforced my cynicism so profoundly, that I’ve basically lost the ability to respect the gender and create fulfilling relationships. I know too much about how women work to consider them as equals in terms of character, virtue, honor, etc.

    By chasing success with women, I essentially became a sociopath.

    This is why I’ve erred on the cautious side and tried to avoid pursuing relationships rather than change my behavior to get a relationship. I simply do not want to get to the point where I no longer see women as human beings.

  • Antitype

    @Jackie

    Hmmmm…. good point. I guess it’s paradoxes like that that keep me from being a literal sociopath as VD pointed out.

    In fact, I think differently about most any women I meet and interact with outside the frame of a sexual encounter. Women I have no interest in getting to know at an intimate level like coworkers, my boss, long-time friends. I’m nowhere near as close or open with them as my male friends or coworkers, but I don’t view them quite as cynically, since the nature of attraction really isn’t a factor in the interaction.

  • Escoffier

    Marellus:

    That’s a good question. We can all recognize the psychopaths who are super-successful with women, but there are plenty who are complete zeros in the SMP. Psychopathy in and of itself seems to cut to both extremes.

  • Samael

    My mom met Ted Bundy when she was in college. Some friends of hers fell for the fake cast “please help me carry my books” bit. But I don’t think he killed anyone from our neck of the woods. It towards the end when he was making his away cross country though.

    I can see the appeal of psycopaths though. Take Christian Bale in American Psycho. So dreamy, and that intricate knowledge of Huey Lewis… *whew* If I was a hooker he could scratch me up anytime! Or Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet.. nothing says romance like huffing ether and a heaping dose of sexual sadism. *swoon*

    • My mom met Ted Bundy when she was in college. Some friends of hers fell for the fake cast “please help me carry my books” bit.

      OMG! Does she remember him? What kind of an impression did he make?

  • INTJ

    @ Samael

    My mom met Ted Bundy when she was in college. Some friends of hers fell for the fake cast “please help me carry my books” bit. But I don’t think he killed anyone from our neck of the woods. It towards the end when he was making his away cross country though.

    Holy!!! That’s just scary to think about.

  • I’m nowhere near as close or open with them as my male friends or coworkers, but I don’t view them quite as cynically, since the nature of attraction really isn’t a factor in the interaction.

    I used to tell my cad friends that the only reason they liked me was because they weren’t attracted to me. Sex = Destruction for most of them. No matter how good the woman was the moment they dropped their panties for them they would do everything withing their power to get rid of them while still having sex with them. It was bizarre.

  • INTJ

    @ Antitype

    In fact, when I think about it, I think this is the reason I’ve been so reluctant to try and break out of my beta male hamster and actually try showing interest in girls. It’s not that I’m afraid of rejection per se. It’s that as long as I don’t approach girls, I can blame things on my own beta ineptitude. I’m worried that if I do approach girls with bad results (which is what seems to happen with most guys I know who try), then I’m going to get cynical and start acting more jerklike towards them. I just don’t want to get trapped in that vicious cycle of positive reinforcement for such an attitude.

    • @INTJ

      It’s that as long as I don’t approach girls, I can blame things on my own beta ineptitude.

      The good news is that you have just proven you are not a sociopath, as you do not blame your misfortunes on others. 🙂

  • Jackie

    @Samael, INTJ, Susan

    Ted Bundy stories! OMG, here is one from my atheist mentor who I just visited:

    In the 1970s, she and her best friend took a year off from college to hitch-hike across the USA. (Back then, it was the equivalent of backpacking through Europe. Nowadays, it sounds completely crazy. Anyway, I digress!)

    They were somewhere in Washington state when they were thumbing a ride down a two-lane road. A VW Beetle pulled over by the side of the road and asked if the girls wanted a ride. She later told me that he seemed JUST like anybody else. No weird vibes. In fact, he was quite handsome and charming.

    She said the only weird thing was that the passenger side bucket seat had been removed, but he made it seem like a logical explanation.

    They drove on for a while.

    Then the guy started telling them– as a complete non sequitur– the story of a girl who had been mauled by a bear. My mentor said that he really, really got into telling the story– how the bear had trapped her, how she screamed when she couldn’t get away, and what the bear did next. It was at this time, my mentor said, that he “turned.”

    Something changed within, and it was like a switch had been flicked to an alter personality. The guy started getting really into the description of the bear’s mutilation and, frankly, it got even grosser and sexual. She said it was obvious the guy was getting extremely turned-on by the description and kind of reveling in it.

    It was at this point in time that my mentor was really freaking out and wanted to get out of that little Bug ASAP. She said, You can drop us off here– we’re good. And the guy said, You’re sure? It was a two-lane road. Still in the middle of nowhere. They said YES!!! And scrambled out of the car the second it stopped.

    He waved Bye and the car kept going down the two-lane road.

    Then, after a minute, the car took a U-turn and went back the way it had been coming from, passing the girls once more.

    My mentor didn’t realize until *years* later, once Bundy had been captured and was on TV. She called her friend, “Stacey! Turn on the tv!” And it was the same guy.

    Later, she said she knew– she just *knew*– that when the guy had been getting all turned-on by talking about the bear’s mutilation of that poor girl, it was no bear. Bundy was talking about *himself*.

    She later found out that the bucket seat had been removed so he was better able to catch his victims and keep them from escaping. She also hypothesized that the reason he didn’t put up much of a fight was because there were two of them and they were both seasoned at that point. These were no naive college girls.

    And now, I’ve just scared myself! 🙁
    THE END

    • @Jackie

      I just spent 45 minutes reading about Ted Bundy. And that detail about the missing passenger seat was included!

      Apparently, not only did he return to his victims repeatedly to have sex after they were dead, he also sometimes shampooed them and put makeup on their faces.

      OK, I have an eerie story for you. Not as creepy as yours, but I can tell you it freaked me out as a kid.

      On August 8, 1969, my father was away (from LA) on business and my mother drove us to visit friends in the Valley for dinner. She hated driving on freeways, and we made our way home on the coast roads, going through Laurel Canyon, near Benedict Canyon. She drove a little sports car:

      sa

      …which was a pretty narcissistic choice since she had three kids. I was 12 and seated in the front seat, my brothers, aged 9 and 10, were squeezed into the back (no seatbelts). It was a lovely night, and a nice drive, though there were lots of stoplights and it was a very slow way to get home.

      Anyway, when the book Helter Skelter came out in 1974 it described the Manson family pulling up to a red light in Laurel Canyon on August 8, 1969. Next to them was a mother and three kids in a small white sports car. Manson decided they should kill the family before proceeding to the Polanski home. His followers immediately agreed, but the light suddenly changed and the small white car sped away.

      That was us.

      How many near misses do each of us have that we are never even aware of?

  • Jackie

    @Anti-type (35)

    I’m glad to hear you are not completely cynical. 😉

    This is just my 3 cents, but I think you should keep those good relationships with your mom (sisters, cousins, etc) strong. Seeing feminine in a positive, non-corrupted and hopefully sweet way will help you save yourself, if you let it.

    Good luck and I hope you find what you’re looking for, A-T. 🙂

  • I hate to break this to you, but James Bond is considered the quintessential Dark Triad male:

    I haven’t read the books but from the movies I always though he is closer to this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bZA236Ijqg
    “”Not a crazed gunman Dad, I’m an assassin. Well, the difference bein’ one is a job and the other’s mental sickness!”

    “”Feelins’? Look mate, you know who has a lot of feelings?… Blokes what bludgeon their wife to death with a golf trophy. Professionals have standards.”

    Also before someone accuses me of liking for a Dark Triad I just like Mr Bond as an ally and in our side not crushes on him. 😉

    • @Anacaona

      One of my favorite psychopaths ever is played by Ben Kingsley in Sexy Beast:

      httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSVRGdHFxYc

      That’s a great movie.

  • Antitype

    @Anacona

    Common conception is that the feeling is ‘ok, we’ve had sex, you’re of no worth to me anymore’. And that’s not the case. At least not for me.

    Women moisten their panties over a guy with outcome indifference since a guy that has no investment in her clearly has the options to explore elsewhere. Implicit pre-selection as a high-value male.

    But then they’re shocked when that outcome indifference isn’t gone the next morning.

    No honey, I could walk away before you said yes, and I can walk away after you said yes just as easily.

    In order to attract women I enter a mindset of ‘I think nothing of you’…

    …so the next morning when I look over and I’m still thinking ‘I think nothing of you’

    And even a hint more evaluation would lead to the next logical question:

    …why would I want to continue to spend time with somebody who clearly enjoys being disrespected? Who has proven negative character traits to me?

  • Antitype

    @Susan

    The same tactics that work on girls in clubs work on educated, professional girls I meet through industry events, at art gallery openings, at music festivals, and any number of social events.

    I genuinely disagree with the notion that the asshole appeal is limited to those girls with low self-esteem, or those with a predisposition towards casual sex (who go to bars and clubs looking for it).

  • Höllenhund

    Funnily enough, Ted Bundy was just a run-of-the-mill slimeball beta of mediocre intelligence, the kind of character bred en masse in Western societies. Why people are fascinated by him, I have no idea. The last interview conducted with him clearly proves he was never honest about his intentions and tried to blame his acts on the influence of pornography, which is probably the lamest excuse I can think of.

    youtube.com/watch?v=9sIyTfXv2Hk

    This is in marked contrast to other serial killers like Carl Panzram, who never spouted any BS about themselves and never expressed any remorse. THAT is true psychopathy.

    youtube.com/watch?v=kyND1YH4E-w

  • Women moisten their panties over a guy with outcome indifference since a guy that has no investment in her clearly has the options to explore elsewhere. Implicit pre-selection as a high-value male.

    Some women would had been a more accurate way to start this sentence, IMO.

    I genuinely disagree with the notion that the asshole appeal is limited to those girls with low self-esteem, or those with a predisposition towards casual sex (who go to bars and clubs looking for it).

    The crazies are everywhere. You need to remember that if you display asshole games 24/7 you are going to attract the ones that like that a lot more than the ones that don’t. Some are probably going to have you on neutral and some others will actually avoid you and if they are not hot enough you probably won’t even notice they couldn’t be around you more if they tried. I know that if a guy started his games on me he was attracted and I found my way out of his line of sight as soon as I could. In fact all my cad friends were with women (girlfriends, wives…) when we started our friendship and I made sure they knew I was not interested on anything else. That saved a lot (not all) but a lot of misunderstandings.

  • Sai

    @Antitype
    Wow, where do you live? I guess it doesn’t matter, there are stinkers everywhere. I’m glad there are some women you like/respect, if the others want to act that way… Where is Abbot? It’s about time for another penis quip.

    @Susan
    “I hate to break this to you, but James Bond is considered the quintessential Dark Triad male:”
    FFFFFFFFF
    And I used to wonder about the trickery/manipulation, high number of girls… I guess I didn’t think too hard because he was fictional and the gadgets ‘n cars were just so awesome.

    @Anacaona
    “Also before someone accuses me of liking for a Dark Triad I just like Mr Bond as an ally and in our side not crushes on him. 😉
    No judgment here, SOMEBODY had to save the space program/nukes/submarines/banks/South Korea -I’ll stop now.

    Now I’m going to go to sleep and try not to have horrific dreams of Ted Bundy. 🙁

  • Höllenhund

    I hate to break this to you, but James Bond is considered the quintessential Dark Triad male:

    That’s just another example of putting a sensationalist title on a publication in order to grap attention. James Bond movies have always been marketed to average men because he personified the common male sexual fantasy of having hot women fall into one’s lap as reward for heroic deeds. That’s it – there’s nothing more to them. There’s no Dark Triad to his character – he’s charming and open to casual sex, but has a sense of duty and justice, and never harms innocents.

  • This thread has taken a turn for the scary.

    I’m happy that in my tiny country we don’t have serial killers and/or mass killers I mean I could get killed getting robbed but is less…disturbing to know that you have way to control for that.

    And Holle and I agreeing on something too!? Yep this thread is a spooky one 🙂

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    :shock
    O.
    M.
    G.

    Your story just gave me the chills.

    _Helter Skelter_ is the most frightening book ever– I cannot even imagine this. This is officially the SCARIEST thread on HUS. Ever.

    *pulls cats closer, re-checks all locks in the house*

  • Jackie

    oops I meant
    😯

  • Höllenhund

    The Manson Family has been blanketed by so many layers of sensationalist media bullshit that it’s practically impossible to uncover the truth.

  • Höllenhund

    One highly influential but lesser-known Dark Triad character of the 20th Century was Soviet marshal, deputy premier and secret police chief Lavrentiy Beria, who made a habit out of ordering his bodyguards to randomly kidnap teenage girls, whom he later anally raped in his office…and then gave them flowers and some money when letting them go. Even though he was a physically revolting fat slob, he manipulated various women to have sex with him in exchange for false promises of releasing their imprisoned relatives, most of whom were in fact already shot by the time the women offered themselves to him.

  • Jackie

    @HellHound

    Maybe it’s just your name– but you’re way braver than me!

    I was reading somewhere, about the YouTubes of voicemails Charles Manson. Apparently, his fans would send him cellphones secretly, bribing the guards, and get him to call them. Seriously creepy.

    The thing that I’ve noticed that *everybody* seems to say — even the attorney that opposed him and put him away for life– is how hypnotically mesmerizing the guy was. Manson was interviewed by someone for a magazine; the author thought he had been in there 20 minutes. It had been nearly two hours.

    *back to checking my locks*

  • Höllenhund

    I’m sure Manson’s manipulative abilities are overrated. After all, just how difficult was it to manipulate an average clueless, sheltered, dumb middle-class young white girl in the ’60s?

  • Plain Jane

    Speaking of psychopaths, I keep reading in the Manosphere about “false rape allegations”. That women are having consensual sex with men the night before, then waking up the next morning regretting the sex (because the guy’s a beta or omega or whatever the lingo is) and then calling a lawyer and slapping the poor chap with a legal case of rape!

    Seriously?

    This is hard to believe. They claim this is common. I’m not buying it.

    Do women regret having sex? Sure, sometimes. Are they slapping the men they’ve had regretful sex with with a court summons? Hardly.

    Where the heck did the Manosphere come up with this idea?

  • Höllenhund

    mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php

    falserapesociety.blogspot.hu/p/prevalence-of-false-rape-claims.html

    Read and educate yourself before spouting baseless allegations, Plain Jane.

  • Plain Jane

    Antitype, “The same tactics that work on girls in clubs work on educated, professional girls I meet through industry events, at art gallery openings, at music festivals, and any number of social events.”

    What do you mean by “work”? The women laugh at a joke? Smile at you? Flirt back if you flirt?

    I can’t tell you how many men I’ve met who interpret polite behaviour and normal social behaviour, such as laughing at a joke, smiling, retaining eye contact during a conversation, casual flirty banter as an IOI or indicator of interest.

    It got to the point where I had to avoid eye contact during a conversation and not laugh at a joke just so guys wouldn’t think I was being anything more than a polite citizen with minimal social skills.

    So when I read about how “the same thing that works on bar sluts works on all other women” I have to wonder. No doubt there are men out there who thought they “worked” on me too, again because I’m polite in public and have some social skills.

  • Höllenhund

    More:

    slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2009/10/how_often_do_women_falsely_cry_rape.single.html

    ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm

    Again, Plain Jane, consider reading first, instead of hijacking the thread.

  • Plain Jane

    “Read and educate yourself before spouting baseless allegations, Plain Jane.”

    I did. Countless Manosphere blogs talk about false rape allegations on campus and how male students are being “suspended” (!) for “false rape”, ruining these young mens’ lives. First, if rapists are raping and all they are getting is suspending from school, I’d say they are getting off scott free! Second, I went to several websites that discuss this issue and nowhere is it a matter of, “Golly jeepers, I had consensual sex with this guy the night before and now that I’ve woken up and see him in daylight, eww, I wish I hadn’t. Better have him arrested for rape!”

    And yet that is what the Manosphere is claiming female college students are doing, en masse.

  • Höllenhund

    “I did.”

    No you didn’t. There’s no way you looked through all the research I linked to in about 30 seconds. You just keep spouting baseless generalizations.

  • Plain Jane

    Oh, and actually, its Susan Atkins who is the manipulative master mind behind those murders. And she married TWICE in jail, on top of all the countless love letters she got from male admirerers. And she ain’t easy on the eyes either. Must be something about sick, psychopathic women that turn (some) men on. Even now when you go to her and the other Manson Girl youtube videos there are comments like, “damn those women were hot”. And, “don’t you just love the way 60’s women looked? why can’t women look like that today?” And they were all pretty unnattractive women, average at the very best, but most of them were homely, Susan and Squeaky in particular.

  • Plain Jane

    Hollenhund, I have researched the subject already, months ago. The Manosphere does claim that false rape allegations are rampant on college campuses because female co-eds are having consensual sex with men they night before and waking up regretting it because they realize those men are betas or omegas the next morning. So rather than live with the reality that they slept with a beta/omega, they save face by accusing him of rape. This is a common theme on Manosphere blogs. Where’s the proof this is happening on college campuses across the nation?

  • Höllenhund

    Where’s the proof this is happening on college campuses across the nation?

    There are only three potential motivations for a false rape accusation, with a possibility of overlap: a) saving face i.e. protecting social reputation b) personal regret c) mere harmful intent, which may or may not be an act of vengeance, for whatever reasons. Neither one is more dignified or justifiable than the other. Your point is…what? It’s pretty obvious that you have no reasonable argument to make by bringing up false rape allegations.

  • @Holle
    You forgot http://www.innocenceproject.org
    If PJ is kind of enough to google rape she will find tons of cases.

  • Plain Jane

    “Your point is…what?”

    I want to know where Manospherians are getting the idea that college women who have consensual sex with male students are waking up the next morning regretting it and having them arrested for rape, but somehow they just get “suspended from school” for it.

  • Plain Jane
  • Abbot

    “There is also considerable research correlating promiscuity to the personality traits of low agreeableness and low conscientiousness. Extraverted, impulsive, and sensation-seeking personalities predict:
    Multiple sexual partners
    Unprotected sex
    Intoxicated sex
    No-strings sex”

    Um, is this that cut-em-a-break-for-past-mistakes thing that guys should consider when seeking comfort before committing to a woman?

    Not going to happen…dont even bother screening a known promiscuous woman…

  • Plain Jane

    “Sam Vaknin (_Malignant Narcissism_– fascinating book) has a lot of YouTubes that briefly analyze facets of NPD. He is also completely upfront about being a narcissist, so he is a fitting study for his self-obsession; like a snake eating its own tail, to use a gross metaphor.”

    You know, many only children (no siblings), tend toward introversion and self-reflection. I wonder if a large percentage of narcissists are made up of only children? Is there just a fine line between self-reflection and self-obsession? My best friend is an only child and she tends toward hoarding for herself and not sharing with others. She likes her autonomy, independence, doesn’t like to share her space, etc.

    In many ways, PUAs are a textbook case for these; they develop a false self right down to the point of giving it a name (Mystery, Style, etc). Their actions and words are studied, rehearsed, practiced and utterly inauthentic. I think Ricky Raw has a great analysis of this, if you are interested, on his blog.

  • Plain Jane

    “Bundy was regarded as handsome and charismatic by his young female victims, traits he exploited in winning their trust. ”

    POINT: They found him attractive NOT because he was a psychopathic killer, but because he was “handsome and charismatic”.

    “He typically approached them in public places, feigning an injury or disability, or impersonating an authority figure, before overpowering and assaulting them at a more secluded location. ”

    At that point obviously they no longer considered him attractive but rather crazy and dangerous and were fearing for their lives.

    Will men not be attracted to a HB10 cereal killer BEFORE they realize she’s a serial killer?

    Is there a way to know a physically attractive person is a killer or not before you know who they are?

    • @Plain Jane

      Two things:

      First, I know personally of three cases of women having drunken sex and then claiming rape the next day, all false. I also have heard stories second hand on numerous occasions. It happens, there’s no question. Furthermore, at some schools, e.g. Duke, a rape investigation can be triggered by a third party. For example, Susan has drunken sex with Tom. Susan’s roommate Jenny is a Women’s Studies major and thinks Tom is a douche. She reports Tom to the school, claiming that Jenny came home in the morning distraught and clearly still intoxicated. Tom is now accused of sexual assault, and must defend himself before the DC.

      POINT: They found him attractive NOT because he was a psychopathic killer, but because he was “handsome and charismatic”.

      The point is that psychopathy and charisma are linked. In Bundy’s case, he was in a serious relationship with a woman who kept calling the police to say she believed he was the killer, and at the same time stayed in a relationship with him and even discussed marriage.

  • INTJ

    Am I the only one who can’t bare to look at the Robert Hare quote because it’s grammatically incorrect? He should have said “If I weren’t studying psychopaths in prison, I’d do it at the stock exchange.”

  • INTJ

    @ Plain Jane

    Speaking of psychopaths, I keep reading in the Manosphere about “false rape allegations”. That women are having consensual sex with men the night before, then waking up the next morning regretting the sex (because the guy’s a beta or omega or whatever the lingo is) and then calling a lawyer and slapping the poor chap with a legal case of rape!

    Seriously?

    This is hard to believe. They claim this is common. I’m not buying it.

    Do women regret having sex? Sure, sometimes. Are they slapping the men they’ve had regretful sex with with a court summons? Hardly.

    Where the heck did the Manosphere come up with this idea?

    In jurisdictions in which police thoroughly investigated all rape claims, they found that many of them appeared sketchy and further investigation resulted in women recanting their rape claims 40-45% of the time: http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/

  • INTJ

    In fact, I remember Susan having an anecdote about this girl who was suspended because her roommate claimed she was raped and the girl “assisted the rapist” by testifying that the sex had been consensual.

    • In fact, I remember Susan having an anecdote about this girl who was suspended because her roommate claimed she was raped and the girl “assisted the rapist” by testifying that the sex had been consensual.

      Yes, that’s one of the cases I referred to. Actually, what she did was warn the guy that the roommate was going to take revenge by claiming rape. She was suspended for “violating the confidence of another student,” which was a breach of the honor code. Meanwhile, he was disciplined. No one considered the actually testimony of the girl who revealed the sham.

  • Plain Jane

    In my research, it appears that colleges are doing everything within their might to prevent victims of sexual assault from going to the police and hiring a lawyer. This prevents real justice from being served. Getting suspended from summer school, which you had no intention of attending anyway, is “ruining young men’s lives”?! Au contraire, they are getting off easy. College co-eds need to either carry concealed weapons to protect themselves or ignore campus policy and go straight to police and call a lawyer.

    “In a June 2010 article dealing with matters at Reed College, two experts in how colleges handle sexual assaults criticized the system used at Reed, a highly secretive process based on a student Honor Code and enforced by a student Judicial Board.

    Though the board’s disciplinary recommendations are reviewed and implemented by Reed College President Colin Diver, the college does not investigate allegations of sexual misconduct with a trained investigator. Instead, students act as a fact-finding committee, holding hearings that often place victims and perpetrators in the same room. Many students are unaware that an alternative, faculty committee exists. Participants are barred from discussing their cases with anyone except a designated advocate, a procedural aide and medical professionals.

    Three students interviewed last year said the forced silence cut them off from friends and faculty they normally would have relied on for support after being assaulted. One reported the process was so secretive she wasn’t sure she could tell her mother about it. And all three were dissatisfied with the outcome of the hearings.

    The students also told similar stories of personal and academic upheaval after reporting sexual assault at Reed, which enrolls about 1,400 students. All three said they were discouraged from calling police after reporting sexual assault to authorities and instead were routed to the Judicial Board, where they faced intense pressure to keep quiet about their cases, with related documents stamped “confidential” and constant reminders about confidentiality rules.”

    http://www.publicintegrity.org/2011/04/08/3973/portland-college-students-demand-changes-sexual-assault-process

    • In my research, it appears that colleges are doing everything within their might to prevent victims of sexual assault from going to the police and hiring a lawyer.

      I know some schools forbid an accused male to have legal representation when meeting with the Disciplinary Committee.

  • INTJ

    @ Jackie, Susan

    Holy shit! I’m happy I don’t know about having any such close calls…

  • INTJ

    @ Plain Jane

    I can’t tell you how many men I’ve met who interpret polite behaviour and normal social behaviour, such as laughing at a joke, smiling, retaining eye contact during a conversation, casual flirty banter as an IOI or indicator of interest.

    LOL! The problem is that most women do intend such behavior to be an IOI. Women are ridiculously mysterious about their IOIs…

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I hate to break this to you, but James Bond is considered the quintessential Dark Triad male:

    Who is James Bond?: The Dark Triad as an Agentic Social Style

    Yup. He’s definitely Dark Triad.

    Jason Bourne on the other hand is a dad, not a cad.

  • Plain Jane

    Susan! That story about you, your mom and brothers being targetted (but thankfully missed) by the Manson Clan takes the creepy cake!

    Funny, you don’t strike me as the type that grew up in California at all though. I get New England vibe from you all the way. Though before my time, I’ve always been attracted to that era in California, mid to late 60s hippie and revolutionary era. What was it like living there at that time?

    INTJ,
    “LOL! The problem is that most women do intend such behavior to be an IOI. Women are ridiculously mysterious about their IOIs…”

    Disagree. Women with social skills do not intend polite chatter, laughing at jokes and eye contact during conversations to be indicators of sexual interest. This is all normal social behaviour.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    The good news is that you have just proven you are not a sociopath, as you do not blame your misfortunes on others. 🙂

    To be sure, I do to some extent hold a grudge against women as a whole for the current SMP. Especially when I come to places like HUS (or better still, intjforum.com). But it’s really just letting out the steam so that I can go back and have a healthy opinion of women in real life. 🙂

  • INTJ

    @ Plain Jane

    Disagree. Women with social skills do not intend polite chatter, laughing at jokes and eye contact during conversations to be indicators of sexual interest. This is all normal social behaviour.

    Well they might also do such things with people they aren’t interested in. But it’s quite common for a girl to actually be interested in a guy but limit any indicators of interest to the stuff you mention.

  • Plain Jane renwed trolling vigor plus Ted Bundy = worst HUS thread over.

    • Plain Jane renewed trolling vigor plus Ted Bundy = worst HUS thread ever.

      Haha! At least she deserves credit for posting under her real identity. That is what I’ve asked of her, and so far she has complied. We will see.

  • Fucking iPad, *renewed, *ever

  • Samael

    My mom on Ted Bundy “He seemed like a nice normal guy, really friendly.” She about had a heart attack when they arrested him.

    • My mom on Ted Bundy “He seemed like a nice normal guy, really friendly.” She about had a heart attack when they arrested him.

      Yeah, that’s what they always say about serial killers. Either that, or “He kept to himself, but seemed like a nice guy.”

  • Antitype

    @PlainJane

    I pretty specifically meant women that I would talk to, act completely indifferent and borderline disrespectful toward, who would offer me their number by the end of the night and generally have sex with me by the end of the week.

  • Antitype

    And as far as college rape charges go, any time it comes down to a he-said, she-said scenario with no (or inconclusive) physical evidence, the guy SHOULD get off scott free, since the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the accuser.

    Honestly, I think the names of the accused should be witheld from the public in the same way that the names of the alleged victim are. It’s ridiculous that one party gets complete protection from the court of public opinion, while the other is basically left on the proverbial cross.

    • And as far as college rape charges go, any time it comes down to a he-said, she-said scenario with no (or inconclusive) physical evidence, the guy SHOULD get off scott free, since the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the accuser.

      Agree, and the Obama administration has weakened that be changing the standard from “reasonable doubt” to “51%.”

  • Mike C

    One of my favorite psychopaths ever is played by Ben Kingsley in Sexy Beast:

    httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSVRGdHFxYc

    That’s a great movie.

    Re Ben Kingsley, if you haven’t seen it you might check out Suspect Zero which is about serial killers. It got shitty reviews, but I was on the edge of my seat. Pretty freaky.

  • INTJ

    @ OTC

    Plain Jane renwed trolling vigor plus Ted Bundy = worst HUS thread over.

    Holy shit. I must be extremely distracted today.

    I was like “hey Plain Jane is starting to remind me of that old troll, what was her name again?” “But Plain Jane obviously isn’t that troll, as she’s a regular commenter. Her name sounds familiar.”

    What can I say. Brain fart.

  • INTJ

    Basically, I just epically failed at “spot the Plain Jane”…

  • Plain Jane

    ” Disagree. Women with social skills do not intend polite chatter, laughing at jokes and eye contact during conversations to be indicators of sexual interest. This is all normal social behaviour.”

    “Well they might also do such things with people they aren’t interested in. But it’s quite common for a girl to actually be interested in a guy but limit any indicators of interest to the stuff you mention.”

    INTJ, hmmm dunno bout that. I for example get shy and awkward around men I’m attracted to, and even avoid them, as do other women I know. I can talk very freely and comfortably however with men I am not attracted to, causing them to assume I’m attracted to them.

    Antitype, I’m of the opinion that sexual assault victims should go STRAIGHT to the police and forget these campus councils or whatever that are set up to deal with the issue. Zero tolerance means no pussy footing around. Either carry a concealed weapon at all times, and use it in such situations, or go straight to the police.

    That will put an end to the “grey area”.

  • Mike C

    Susan,

    That is just outright scary. How old were you when you discovered that. I was watching an interview with Seth McFarlane who created Family Guy, and he was talking about being late to the airport on 9/11 because he slept in and they wouldn’t let him board. It was one of the planes that was flown into the tower.

    Not sure what I wasn’t aware of, but I had lightning strike once about 10-15 feet away, and in my stupid youth I just missed getting nailed trying to beat a train.

    • @Mike C

      I think my mom read Helter Skelter when it came out in paperback and freaked out at that part. I remember reading it, and it mentioned the time, which corresponded to our being at that intersection on that night. I would have been about 18 or 19 then.

      It really is crazy – what if we could see a movie of all our near misses? The almost car accidents, the times someone would have mugged you but you stepped into the light, etc.

      And of course, the opposite is also true. I’m sure there were people on those flights on 9/11 who were happy to get a seat at the last minute.

  • INTJ

    Damnit can’t help responding to the Plain Jane…

    @ Plain Jane

    INTJ, hmmm dunno bout that. I for example get shy and awkward around men I’m attracted to, and even avoid them, as do other women I know. I can talk very freely and comfortably however with men I am not attracted to, causing them to assume I’m attracted to them.

    You proved my point. Indicators of interest given out by girls are so ridiculously obtuse that you can’t complain about men getting them wrong.

  • Puppy

    Imagine you enter a portion of the blogosphere where women are ceaselessly lionizing ‘what it means to be feminine’. Remember Marlene Dietrich? Yeah, she really had it. What is it?

    The mushy triad.

    Basically you want your whole body to be one enormous padding of muscle-firmed fat, in the shape of an hourglass. You dont have a skeleton because that impedes flexibility, and having bones isn’t girly enough. Oh yeah, make sure everything you wear is always pink and ‘snuggly’. Gag reflexes are a crime in this beautiful universe. Always be empathizing with everything – including the furniture and the ocean. Take care of everyone, always. Be a mother – to everything. Yet be a sexkitten – only to him. Focus the feminine tractor beam (it comes from between the legs) onto him until he levitates and is dragged up and into the Relationship. Remember that old fictional character who was the perfect picture of femininity? Yeah, strive to embody that.

    You may laugh at this, but if someone were selling you that seriously, it is what it would be like to enter this alternative universe where Cads and Psychopaths use the Dark Triad to have sex with drunk coed losers. Wait, am I trapped in a Cormac Mccarthy novel?

    Doesn’t anyone else understand how boring women are? Do you not know what its like after you’ve laid them? After you’ve laid them, you get to be their father – thats it. Snuggle them when theyre bored. Its actually totally righteous, but not with the kinds of girls who are filling out the scorecards of the guys being talked about in the endless Portrait of a Cad posts:
    Dear Diary, today someone threw trash out on the highway, after seeing such a careless act I was forced to ask myself: ‘Why does this guy get laid so much more than I do? Is it because of his reckless endangerment of life?’ I saw someone swerve to purposely re-run-over roadkill, and I said to myself: ‘He has to be dating at least two HB10s!!’

    I guess this is too big picture, or maybe I’m just stupid: but if you are reverse engineering the Midnight Triad traits back into yourself, you are already too smart for the girls attracted to Ye Olde Sable Triad.

    You don’t need to call on the powers of the Satanic Triad, in order to get close with the bookworm intellectual eccentric hipster university girls that are your natural victims. Yes, if your free time is spent reading paragraphs like this one, some splinter cell of the group described above will be your prey. Its like, in order to conquer a guy’s fears, he believes he has to morph into something awesome, something incredible. And because the human imagination is unconscious, it only births monstrosities: a cross between Brad Pitt, James Bond, a CIA assassin, Ricky Martin, Count Chocula and Rainman. Yeah, thats it. Just become that hideous thing and the girl in the library will be down. Unlikely.

    I don’t even know what I’m ranting about anymore, but god it feels goooood. Take my relationship advice – I’ve been single for a good long while!

    Honestly though, in my make-believe world I just was in the grocery store, where I bumped into a manosphere blogger. He stepped on my foot and I said: “please stop stepping on my foot” and he said “Holy shit, you are dominant.” Yes, I said, if by ‘dominant’ you mean I AM HUMAN.

    Oh yeah, and to the lady who warned girls against brooding loners: what do you know about brooding loners? I’ve been one, so ITS ON GIRL.
    I always give my girl-friends this advice: If a brooding loner doesn’t end up killing you, he will almost certainly make you stronger. Allow me to warn all my male readers right now, as a countermeasure: see the quiet girl next to you, the one with the shy demeanor, who looks like she might be too nervous to approach a stranger? The one who is incredibly cute in your mind but isnt beautiful enough to model (except in your mind?) . RUN from that girl, boys. Because there’s a fraction of a chance that she just might be a psychopath. She’s almost certainly a narcissist. If she’s a virgo on top of all that – best not to say.

    Fuck these enlightened blogs – sometimes a man just wants blind drunk blackout sex with faceless sorority swine! Lets do this right… don the cape, stand inside the pentagram, call upon the triad. Thank you, the manosphere.

    • Fuck these enlightened blogs — sometimes a man just wants blind drunk blackout sex with faceless sorority swine! Lets do this right… don the cape, stand inside the pentagram, call upon the triad. Thank you, the manosphere.

      Pentagram? Hmmm, this must be a member of Roosh’s Evil Patriarchy blog network.

      ep

      I believe most, if not all, of the male Game bloggers belong, though some don’t have the cajones to display the badge.

  • @INTJ

    I think we are giving PJ a chance to try and be less stupid because she is using her name for a change (of course maybe her personalities ran out of names), but she is probably not going to stick around long with her “I know better than you” attitude. We tried…*le sigh*

    I was watching an interview with Seth McFarlane who created Family Guy, and he was talking about being late to the airport on 9/11 because he slept in and they wouldn’t let him board. It was one of the planes that was flown into the tower.

    One of my college teachers was in one of the 9/11 planes because he missed his original one out of oversleeping too. Had you heard the tale “An appointment in Samarra”?

    “Death speaks: There is a merchant in Baghdad who sent his servant to buy provisions from the market and in a little while the servant came back, white and trembling, and said, Master, just now when I was in the market-place I was jostled by a woman in the crowd and when I turned I saw it was Death that jostled me.

    She looked at me and made a threatening gesture; now, lend me your horse, and I will ride away from this city to avoid my fate. I will go to Samarra and there Death will not find me.

    The merchant lent him his horse, and the servant mounted it, and he dug his spurs in its flanks and as fast as the horse could gallop he went. Then the merchant went down to the market-place and he saw me standing in the crowd and he came to me and said, Why did you make a threatening gesture to my servant when you saw him this morning?

    That was not a threatening gesture, I said, it was only a start of surprise. I was astonished to see him in Baghdad, for I had an appointment with him tonight in Samarra.”

    Life is a bitch and then….you know the rest.

  • Plain Jane

    “Damnit can’t help responding to the Plain Jane…”

    Yeah, I have that effect on Desi guys 😉

    “Imagine you enter a portion of the blogosphere where women are ceaselessly lionizing ‘what it means to be feminine’. Remember Marlene Dietrich? Yeah, she really had it. What is it?

    The mushy triad. ”

    Dietrich? SRSLY? She was a lesbian who introduced the androgynous mystique to Hollywood.

  • Plain Jane

    “Fuck these enlightened blogs – sometimes a man just wants blind drunk blackout sex with faceless sorority swine!”

    Impossible, Puppy! If he’s blind drunk blackout then he can’t get it up in the first place. And if she’s blind drunk blackout, she can’t consent, hence its rape.

    Sober is the only way, mechanically functional and consensual sexual intercourse can happen.

  • Puppy

    I almost wonder if blog posts like this one are not, on some level, encouraging psychopathic crimes. How many crimes are committed each year where the actual motivation was ‘to be the badboy women love?’ How many of us men reading this are now considering doing something illegal just to prove to ourselves ‘I still got it’?

    Seriously there are certain stages in male development at which our brains become fogged, and I can tell you – whatever suave caveats are applied to this piece – to me it shines like a neon light: “Hurting others = getting laid.” I can’t even read the discouragement that I know exists somewhere in this text, because my brain is fogged by desire, since dr. Walsh’s avatar pic and the knowledge she is reading this is inadvertantly turning me on. You want the truth about male sexuality – well, thats mine. The shining blue eyes of your avatar can turn your own posts to nonsense. So keep it simple.

    To anyone reading this: this blog entry is NOT an advocation of satanism, or Charles Manson, even though people on here are talking about this, and it all melts together in your brain after a while and seems like its some vague promotion of psychopathy. Stay the course.

  • szopen

    @samael
    “My mom on Ted Bundy “He seemed like a nice normal guy, really friendly”

    There are studies in which people were presented with faces of real people, both innocent and criminals, and were presented with a question “is this guy a criminal?”. People usually have non-random chance of spotting a criminal (disturbing, isn’t it), that is, they were not always right, but they had success ratio larger that predicted if they would just pick photos at random.

    There was one, huge exception.

    Woman had absolutely no success in spotting rapists. They had success ratio LOWER than predicted by a chance.

    http://shell.newpaltz.edu/jsec/articles/volume5/issue1/VallaVol5Iss1.pdf

    The only significant effect involved females’ rape likelihood ratings. Comparing females’ rape ratings for rapists to those given to the other three criminal categories revealed that rapists were rated significantly less likely than other criminal types to have committed rape (p = .04).
    Of all photo categories, including non-criminals, rapists were rated as least likely to commit a crime, but not significantly so.
    Interestingly, when analyzed separately for each sex, this particular difficulty in identifying rapists remained for females, but not males.

    My score is 80%. You can check yourself here:

    http://reverent.org/criminal_or_not/

    • @szopen

      I got only a 50% on that test.

      Apparently, it’s easier to detect cheaters (from Barking Up the Wrong Tree):

      5) Don’t want to get cheated on? Here is where you should trust your instincts. Research shows cheaters may actually look different from non-cheaters:
      Cosmides and Tooby argue that humans possess a domain-specific cheater detection module, which allows them to keep track of who has honored and who has violated social contracts. Consistent with this logic, others demonstrate that humans better recognize faces of known cheaters than those of known cooperators. We show, in Experiments 1–3, that humans better recognize faces of cheaters than those of cooperators when they do not know who are cheaters and cooperators. Experiment 4 demonstrates, however, that humans think they recognize cheaters’ faces even when they have not seen them before. The results of these experiments suggest that cheaters might look different from cooperators, possibly due to beliefs and personality traits that make them less ideal exchange partners, and the human mind might be capable of picking up on subtle visual cues that cheaters’ faces give off.

      Source: “You can judge a book by its cover: Evidence that cheaters may look different from cooperators” from Evolution and Human Behavior

  • szopen

    And, BTW, I have just learned very simply trick, which works in Polish for 90% of people. I wonder whether it would work also in English. Please ask your friends/partner “Please repeat silk silk silk”. “Now tell me what does a cow drink?”

  • modernguy

    Without forcing women culturally to single-mindedly pursue lifelong commitment from the first days of puberty this stuff is only going to get worse. The reason girls go for psychopaths is because they’ve made romance into a game and psychopaths and cads provide the most drama, and therefore, the most fun. As long as it’s allowed to go on it will get worse.

  • VD

    My life improved 1000 times when I cut my psychopath of a brother out of it for good like 12 years ago, my husband has never meet him and with luck never will. Every single member of the family that has stayed in contact is always in trouble because of him and getting him out of trouble. He plays the “Please help me I will do better next time it was someone’s else’s fault” card so well…and he had been doing that since he was 4. Is amazing if you don’t have to deal with it that is.

    Precisely. It’s the same for an employee of mine with a psycho brother.

    How many near misses do each of us have that we are never even aware of?

    That’s why my wife’s first Christmas present after we were married came in 9mm. A few years later, she cracked me up when she came home one night and said that on the way home a man had seen her, tried to cut her off, and then stopped at a red light in front of her, got out of the car and started to approach her. She was just trying to decide whether to run over him with her Suburban or shoot him with her laser-sighted Glock when he abruptly turned around, got back in his car, and drove off. My theory is that he noticed the little NRA shield on the front bumper.

    A similar approach is helpful for dealing with potentially problematic boyfriends and little children walking to school. “That red dot on your chest means my Daddy is watching.”

  • Infantry

    @ Ana

    I’ve only briefly owned cats as pets (long story), but I’ve seen the same thing looking at tigers in the zoo. It feels like you’re being appraised in an alien way.

    Pretty morbid account and not the best way I’d like to come back and post here. NAPUAALT, YMMV etc.

    @ Antitype

    Yes I know what you’re talking about. Taking a break from anything pickup related (including pua websites) and treating all women like your sister/mum helps. Try reverse engineering ThePrivateman’s advice and look at finding the good in every woman you meet. You won’t lose your outcome independance so don’t stress about regressing to chump mode.

    Also women that are really worth forming a pairbond with who are right for you in particular are rare so don’t be discouraged.

  • Abbot

    “And if she’s blind drunk blackout, she can’t consent, hence its rape.”

    All casual sex, especially hooker up sex, is rape. Anyone here feel good about wifing up willing repeated mal-parented rapees?

  • Sai

    @Höllenhund
    Eurgh, I read a story about Beria thinking it was disturbing fiction, then I got to the end and saw it wasn’t and felt unclean.

    @OffTheCuff
    “Plain Jane renwed trolling vigor plus Ted Bundy = worst HUS thread over.”
    ROFL

    @VD
    TEN THUMBS UP

  • Höllenhund

    Look, Plain Jane, I linked to the stats proving that false rape accusations are not uncommon. In my judgement, such accusations are inexcusable and should always be prosecuted, no matter what the motive is and no matter how insignificant the consequences for the accused appear to be. Period. The fact that the feminists and their ilk who control the media narrative about this issue always try to stifle open debate about it and try to paint it as isignificant is all I need to know about this issue. I won’t discuss this issue any further because it has nothing to do with either psychopathy or the alleged motivations of the Manosphere.

  • A thing that always bothers me about this kind of article is that I have a hard time believing that psychopathy is an on/off trait. Surely there are some men who are somewhat psychopathic or sociopathic, but not completely. I know that my level of empathy varies a lot depending on the situation and the type of person I might empathise with it.

  • The Daniel Craig James Bond makes an interesting remark in Quantum of Solace: “I don’t have any friends”. M also remarks, I think in Casino Royale, “I would tell you to remain emotionally detached, but that isn’t your problem, is it Bond?”, with the implication that he has a more serious problem. In short, the Craig Bond is pretty much a psychopath.

  • People usually have non-random chance of spotting a criminal (disturbing, isn’t it), that is, they were not always right, but they had success ratio larger that predicted if they would just pick photos at random.

    Probably evo-bio at work. Speculating of course it was important on ancient past to find out who was to be trusted fast before they smack you in the head with a stone axe…

    Woman had absolutely no success in spotting rapists. They had success ratio LOWER than predicted by a chance.

    More speculation the rapists that couldn’t convince their victims to come with them to a secluded placed because they were “harmless” didn’t reproduce as much thus the ones we have around now are the ones that look the less likely to rape to the female brain.
    I was also thinking that maybe this is the reason why the hottest females, to a point, seem to go for the worst kind of man. Their ancestors being prettier could get away with it and still reproduce (find a lesser man that will care for the offspring in exchange for her beauty, get forgiven by a husband that finds out she stepped out, or he could just turn a blind eye, simply have the men on her lives being willing to share her and shower her with the support she needs) than the less pretty counterparts they probably went for the sure thing and made sure to sell loyalty in order to secure the resources they needed for child-rearing, YMMV.

    I’ve only briefly owned cats as pets (long story), but I’ve seen the same thing looking at tigers in the zoo. It feels like you’re being appraised in an alien way.

    Maybe is a pet compatibility thing I’m personally terrified of gods I love cats and never saw them looking at me in an alien way but if a dog is close to me my brain screams “He is going to eat you” even a tiny chihuaha triggers the fear, is embarrassing as hell.

  • Höllenhund

    Having no friends and being emotionally detached simply comes with the territory when one is, you know, a secret agent, I’m sure.

  • Abbot

    “feminists and their ilk who control the media narrative about this issue always try to stifle open debate about it and try to paint it as insignificant”

    Uncanny! They also control the other closely related narrative: hooking up (de facto rape) along with their promotional blessing to engage in it. Open debate is stifled (shamed) and they desperately try to paint it as insignificant (so men later will brush it off as part of “growing up”).

    Like Napoleon and Hitler marching into Russia, they are refusing to retreat from these blatantly failing and humiliating campaigns that only serve to undermine all prior gains.

    Waist deep in the Big Muddy
    And the big fool says to push on.
    – from a song by Pete Seeger

    .

  • Surely there are some men who are somewhat psychopathic or sociopathic, but not completely. I know that my level of empathy varies a lot depending on the situation and the type of person I might empathise with it.
    That probably makes you and introvert not a psychopath there are other factors at work to do a sort of full diagnosis so I’m sure you need more than being selective about who you bond with to use the label on you and professionals probably agree.

    Since we are talking about this. I wanted to mention that I had tried to study this type of behaviour before both as a one of the many things I’m curious about and to create better villains for my stories. Sadly I can’t stomach many of the findings so I haven’t read a lot about it lately but I did managed to come with a small pet theory while I was perusing in it Let’s call it “Evilness” I know is not a scientific name but it covers a lot of behaviors like psycho and sociopathy and dark triads and I’m sure it evokes a strong response on people.
    Some people are not fully human, in the sense that all the things the superior brain does that makes us try to be decent to each other and helped create civilization (empathy, compassion, sense of justice…) are just not there, are there but can’t connect/command the reptilian brain or are so thin that the connection is meaningless, intermittent or so fragile that some events might severe them forever, like a traumatic childhood. Hence the animal like behaviour similar to predators both the seductive ones like snakes and the butchers like bear (Bundy thinking of himself as a bear for example) and of course cannibalism.
    The link with sex comes from the fact that sex is as primitive as hunger and lies on the reptilian brain so anyone with leaning to having their reptile brains being more in charge than the superior one would naturally experience predator and animal like cravings and this won’t be nice eating grass, drinking water from a fountain but you know getting a powerful rewarding and pleasurable sexual response from hunting a fellow human being in the most savage possible way.
    If you want to look at a difference, the garden variety rapists usually don’t kill the victim and if he is a soft rapist (meaning that he places some drug on her drink and/or wait for her to be pass out) he is not doing it out of violence probably because this is the type that is using rape as a mating strategy subconsciously, so is a different type of criminal (Note: before the boys start protesting I don’t think this is a common behaviour and I do think 99% of men crave a horny hottie really into them sexually and not for pass out/drugged woman that won’t do anything but maybe vomit during the act)
    Again all this is crap I think sometimes just wanted to share, YMMV.

  • Puppy = also Plain Jane, and is now debating with herself.

    • Puppy = also Plain Jane, and is now debating with herself.

      If true, that’s hilarious.

  • Abbot

    ” psychopathy and charisma are linked”

    “Hey Reginald, thats who will be the mother of your children”?
    “Uh yeah, why?”
    “Well, she is a known serial psychopathy penis pouncer and charisma cock caterer. Why permit her this opportunity?”

    Why indeed.

  • Bond’s sociopathy seems to be a new development, in the Daniel Craig movies. It is however inconsistent with his portrayal as a lover in the latter films.

    There is certainly a difference in tone between, say, the Roger Moore Bond, and the Daniel Craig Bond.

  • There is certainly a difference in tone between, say, the Roger Moore Bond, and the Daniel Craig Bond.

    Roger Moore is the Bond I think about when I heard the famous last name, I know is an unpopular opinion but he was actually quite sensible. Blond Bond is not of my liking at all. I saw Casino Royale and I’m sitting out the whole franchise waiting for a new actor. Daniel Craig does looks like a psycho he is not the Bond I like, YMMV.

    I’m personally waiting for Robbie Williams to grow old enough to play Bond in this video he mades a great impersonation IMO:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ5uIkJDb6o

  • Anacaona

    Not being a woman, I cannot really say, but Daniel Craig seems less handsome and striking than previous Bonds.

    However I believe that Ian Fleming had in mind a Bond more like Daniel Craig than Roger Moore. There is a streak of sadism in the books.

  • Not being a woman, I cannot really say, but Daniel Craig seems less handsome and striking than previous Bonds.

    You can’t say that enough. He is actually scary looking to me, not charming at all. But then according to many he is better because he is most realistic…bah if I wanted realism there are plenty of other secret agents in fiction I want my never break a sweat charming almost supernaturally escaping peril James-shakenandnotstirred-Bond. But then I might be just getting old…kid’s get off my lawn.

    PS
    I know that Moore never said that phrase but he should had! :p

    • Sean Connery was the sexiest Bond ever. He’s still sexy:

      sc

      I also have a soft spot for Timothy Dalton as Heathcliff:

      td

      Talk about a Brooding Loner!

  • Anacaona, Daniel Craig looks like a ferret to me.

    The Sean Connery Bond was pretty cold. There were complaints about the cold way he treated women in the first films, including one scene in which he uses a woman as a shield against an attacker. I always thought that was reasonable, since she had deliberately led him into danger.

  • “Rick Von Slonecker is tall, rich, good-looking, stupid, dishonest, conceited, a bully, liar, drunk and thief, an egomaniac, and probably psychotic. In short, highly attractive to women.”

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Metropolitan_(film)

  • INTJ

    @ szopen

    And, BTW, I have just learned very simply trick, which works in Polish for 90% of people. I wonder whether it would work also in English. Please ask your friends/partner “Please repeat silk silk silk”. “Now tell me what does a cow drink?”

    I didn’t have any trouble saying milk afterwards. Though repeatedly saying silk was a bit difficult.

  • I didn’t have any trouble saying milk afterwards. Though repeatedly saying silk was a bit difficult.

    Is a trick question Cows drink water…I have no idea what the OP wanted to prove with it to be honest.

  • In 1989, I passed a woman hitchhiking in the rain on I-4 in Central Florida. I remember feeling sorry for her until I pulled closer and saw that she had a superficial resemblance to a girl who had broken up with me about eight years earlier.

    “To hell with the bitch,” I thought. “I hope she gets soaked.”

    It was Aileen Wuornos.

    • @Mule

      Wow, that is wild. Do we all have six degrees of separation from a serial killer?

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Pentagram? Hmmm, this must be a member of Roosh’s Evil Patriarchy blog network.

    I believe most, if not all, of the male Game bloggers belong, though some don’t have the cajones to display the badge.

    It always feels like there’s something qualitatively different about Chateau Heartiste compared to other Game blogs though. I hate to read other Game blogs, but I can actually read CH and enjoy it to some extent.

    • @INTJ

      Roissy is clever and funny. I find myself laughing even when I hate what he’s saying. His blog is enjoyable.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Yes, that’s one of the cases I referred to. Actually, what she did was warn the guy that the roommate was going to take revenge by claiming rape. She was suspended for “violating the confidence of another student,” which was a breach of the honor code. Meanwhile, he was disciplined. No one considered the actually testimony of the girl who revealed the sham.

    OMG that’s even crazier.

  • John G

    Hm, I got 70%. I missed a few dealers. Strange I gots a blind spot for them…

    • @John G

      I missed the dealers too. I have met some kids who I later learned were dealing. They’re everywhere.

  • I personally like the Daniel Craig interpretation of Bond. I think that there has to be an air of real physical menace and obsession around the character or he can deteriorate into the high camp of a one-dimensional, violent dandy with absurd gadgets and a posh lifestyle.

    LTR scenarios just don’t work out well for Bond when he tries them. Sleeping with women is frequently part of his job description. The guy is an operator, an obligate carnivore, who is used to take out extremely dangerous bad guys—we don’t want him to be domesticated, do we?

    There has been an interesting finding about aggression: one type, “territorial aggression”, is linked to the RAGE circuit in the emotional system, is generally unpleasant to experience, and is associated with dominance hierarchies and “alpha” type social behaviors or challenges. It’s an intra-species type of aggression.

    The second type, “predatory aggression”, is linked to the SEEKING circuit (which is also associated with dopamine-mediated learning and insight generation), is pleasant to experience, and is associated with the professional stalking and killing prey of another species (the so-called “quiet bite”). So cats and dogs do enjoy chasing and killing smaller animals; they aren’t angry, they just enjoy doing it, it’s a nice part of their jobs.

    If you have a person who views himself as a member of a different species from other people, he can see those individuals as prey items and any associated aggression may be “predatory” in nature—low physiological alarm, no emotional trauma, just a generally satisfying hunting experience. I had an opportunity to get into this material a bit more when I was in the military and working with some DoD-related contractors since then (there is great interest in this topic, as you can imagine), and have concluded that there is probably a very interesting area of research work out there that would look at Fisher’s “Explorers”, sociopaths and borderlines, the SEEKING system, sensation-seekers, and humans who are at least potentially capable of showing tr predatory aggression towards other human beings.

    Sometimes you would want people like this in your human capital arsenal—a real-life Bond would probably be a really, really high-level paramilitary operations officer and used for sniper missions and advance force operations to scout targets that would later be hit by elite military guys. You’d want him to consider himself a kind of big-game hunter and to get a certain dopamine-jolt out of doing that work.

    Just to give a quick plug for a buddy: my good friend Marcus Wynne writes some excellent, very-technically-accurate novels that explore alpha masculinity in “shadow warrior” contexts and he includes depictions of various dark sides, including exaggerated sexual appetites, female rape fantasies and hypergamy, etc.

  • Escoffier

    Once upon a time in LA there was a man named Terry Melchter. Terry Melcher was a folk musician who … well, it’s hard to explain Terry Melcher.

    He was the only child of Doris Day, born when she was 18—“before she was a virgin,” in Oscar Levant’s mordant phrase. As such he had some money to play with, which he used to set himself up as a (successful) music producer—he was responsible for The Byrds’ biggest hits—and also to buy a house high up Benedict Canyon where he hosted a kind of drug-fueled salon for the under-25 artistic set in L. A. That house—10050 Cielo Drive—three years later became, not coincidentally, one of the two principle scenes of the Manson murders.

    One day Dennis Wilson, the Beach Boys drummer, was driving back from Malibu to his place in Pacific Palisades. He saw two young, pretty hippie chicks hitchhiking and he picked them up and drove them into LA. A week later, making the same drive, he saw the same two chicks hitchhiking again, and he picked them up again. But this time he took them home.

    He then went to the studio in LA where he recorded with the band for hours. When he returned home at 3 am, he found all the lights in his house ablaze and a large gathering of people in his living room. Charles Manson came outside and greeted him in the driveway.

    Dennis was enthralled by them and for about six months he allowed Manson and “the family” to live in his house. Manson was trying to make it as a musician and Wilson introduced Charlie to Terry Melcher, who said he liked his music and he would produce a record.

    Eventually, Dennis and Terry figured out that Charlie was nuts. Dennis’ solution was … simply to move out of his own house and leave Manson there. Melcher declined to pursue a record deal for Charlie and stopped seeing him or talking to him.

    The Benedict Canyon address, which Charlie and the family had visited many times, was chosen in part to exact revenge on Melcher. Except that by the night of the murders, Terry no longer lived there. He and his live-in girlfriend (Candace Bergen) had moved to Malibu and Terry had rented the house to Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate.

    Small world, eh?

  • Ted D

    BB – “Sometimes you would want people like this in your human capital arsenal—a real-life Bond would probably be a really, really high-level paramilitary operations officer and used for sniper missions and advance force operations to scout targets that would later be hit by elite military guys. You’d want him to consider himself a kind of big-game hunter and to get a certain dopamine-jolt out of doing that work”

    Absolutely! And in fact, I know some hunter type guys that get exactly that kind of dopamine rush from taking down a deer. These are the guys I tend to keep in my circle in case stuff ever does get bad, because I’m pretty sure at least of few of them would have no issue with using those guns on other people if it came to it, and I suspect one or two might actually like it to some extent. Scary to be sure, but I would MUCH rather have them with me than against me…

  • Zach

    Just had the time to check in on this, and couldn’t read all of it, but one comment resonated intensely with me, and that was Antitype @6 and 7.

    I wouldn’t say that I’m a nice guy, but I would say that I’m considerate. Personally I think those two are quite distinct terms. I don’t tiptoe around people’s feelings, but I do have empathy for others, and I don’t like hurting others or seeing others hurt. I still to this day feel guilty about breaking up with my ex, even if it was the right thing to do. However, I temper this with a strong focus on personal responsibility. I don’t feel guilty about having casual sex with a girl. I don’t coerce anyone into my bed, so being there was her choice, and if there are negative consequences for her, so be it.

    I also don’t have a problem with how I relate to women at bars. Being charming and a little bit of a dick is how I relate to men as well. It’s just who I am. However, it’s not all of who I am. I love talking at length about history, economics, psychology, hooking up (smart), and a variety of other topics. The problem is that my success with women via the first frame of relating to them has slowly eaten away at my ability to relate to them in any other way. With experience comes knowledge, and it’s just so risky to open up in any way to a woman, especially the good-looking ones. I’m not going to lie, I will only date a girl I’m very attracted to. I’ve found in my experience the better looking the woman, the less room for letting slip the “mask of game”. One moment of vulnerability that comes to early can sink you forever. So tempered by this experience, I find it very, very hard to EVER let it slip. I desperately want a girl with whom I can let it slip. I can do this on occasion with my closest guy friends (although showing weakness to other men is something that can only be done with those I’ve known the longest and trust), and with some very close girl friends. However, I don’t care about those people in the way I care about an SO (wife, gf, etc). It’s not the same. Dating has become a full blown war, and although I’m winning most of the battles, I’m losing the greater war. At first, I relished winning each battle (and they truly are battles). I loved the thrill of victory, getting her into bed, getting another notch on the post. But after enough wins, the victories are completely hollow to me now. I honestly have gotten to the point where I could care less about having sex. That doesn’t stop me from doing it, because I still have a penis hard-wired to want it, but the next morning I feel no rush of victory, no sense of achievement. It’s hollow. And usually, it’s shitty.

    I had sex with two different girls two weekends ago, and both times, the sex was awful. So much so that I’d probably rather have been in front of my computer with my right hand instead. Tuesday night, I went on a fourth date with a girl that I’m very interested in. We get along really well, we have similar interests, she’s smart, and she’s very attractive. We ended up back at my apartment, and fooled around for 30 minutes or so. We didn’t have sex in any way shape or form, but I would trade both experiences I had with those other two girls for another 30 minutes in that bed with the one from last night.

    Susan, call it whatever you want (Confessions of a Player), but repeated casual sex has made me more cynical and has come to mean nothing to me. I don’t feel guilty about it, because those girls made their bed (mine) and so they must lie in it, but I fucking hate what it’s done to me.

    • @Zach

      Susan, call it whatever you want (Confessions of a Player), but repeated casual sex has made me more cynical and has come to mean nothing to me. I don’t feel guilty about it, because those girls made their bed (mine) and so they must lie in it, but I fucking hate what it’s done to me.

      You know, I was thinking of you (and Jason) when I wrote this post, because I’m fond of both of you personally and do not believe you are psychopathic in any way. What you’re describing is the fallout from the environmental piece, and yes, bad, meaningless sex is pathological, no doubt about it.

      I described above how some orgasms can leave you feeling really crummy.

      I don’t know what to suggest, really. We’ve discussed the reset option before and I’m very clear on why that is not going to happen. The best case scenario is that you find someone you like a lot very soon. Fingers crossed for this new girl. Just remember, if you can’t let the mask slip at all, even half a dozen dates in, she’s not LTR material. Too high maintenance.

  • Zach

    PS

    I knew a real sociopath in college. Lived with him (not as roommates, but with other guys too) for 2 years. We all honestly think he’s the worst human being we’ve ever met. In my pledge class of 18, not a single one of us has spoken to him since graduation. When I took abnormal psych senior year, I looked down the list of characteristics for sociopaths, and he checked almost every single one.

  • Zach

    PPS

    For all those who are going to follow up with “so stop having casual sex”, I’ve done as much as possible in that regard. I never approach a girl at a bar with the intention of trying to take her home anymore. I always go for getting the number to ask them out. However, as we’re flirting, the girl sometimes gets physical, and if I’ve been drinking my nether regions start to take over. It just happens. Plus, I like sex in general, and when I’ve been drinking my mind doesn’t stop and say “hey, this is likely to be really awful sex, so let’s walk away”.

    And rejoinder to those who will say “stop going to bars”. It’s where I socialize with my friends, which I like doing. Plus, it’s where the single women are. All types of single women (not just the casual sex crowd). So I go where the targets are.

  • Zach

    PPPS

    I love women. I love their smiles, I love the way they laugh, I love that they’re compassionate, I love that they’re nicer than I am. Essentially, I love them for being most things that men aren’t. But I don’t get to see that part of them anymore. I get to see “fuck me harder” or “should I text him back at 2 AM?” or “you’re such a jerk! haha”. In the moment, it’s fun, but there’s nothing after. I want to see more of the former aspects, and less of the latter.

    • I love women. I love their smiles, I love the way they laugh, I love that they’re compassionate, I love that they’re nicer than I am. Essentially, I love them for being most things that men aren’t. But I don’t get to see that part of them anymore. I get to see “fuck me harder” or “should I text him back at 2 AM?” or “you’re such a jerk! haha”. In the moment, it’s fun, but there’s nothing after. I want to see more of the former aspects, and less of the latter.

      Another request for femininity. Girls, are you listening?

  • VD

    At first, I relished winning each battle (and they truly are battles). I loved the thrill of victory, getting her into bed, getting another notch on the post. But after enough wins, the victories are completely hollow to me now. I honestly have gotten to the point where I could care less about having sex. That doesn’t stop me from doing it, because I still have a penis hard-wired to want it, but the next morning I feel no rush of victory, no sense of achievement. It’s hollow. And usually, it’s shitty.

    Oh, you’ve got another year or two before the true ennui hits. When you get to the point where you tell a pretty girl not to bother coming over because her twin sister is busy and can’t make it too, then you are officially jaded. I ended up swearing off women and alcohol, shaving my head clean, and training full contact martial arts seven days a week for a while. It was a sort of physical palate cleansing.

    It worked, although Christianity and marriage ultimately worked better in the end. I would encourage you to keep looking and to keep both your eyes and your mind open. Eventually you will find what you are searching for.

  • Susan, wow… what a story! If I tell that to my husband he’s probably going to take his gun everywhere with him.

    Bastiat Blogger, have you watched Cowboys and Aliens with Daniel Craig? Very interesting / different take on the dangerous male archetype. He actually sort of gets domesticated. Don’t want to give away spoilers though.

  • J

    SW, Esco, Jackie, et al–

    These close call stories are stunningly frightening. I have chills.

  • VD

    I want to see more of the former aspects, and less of the latter.

    For me, the ultimate test was a woman’s ability to be in the same room with me and be content in silent company for an hour or two. If she can’t do that, then she’s not a true companion. I can’t say my marriage is perfect or ideal, but I can say that it is generally idyllic and she is an excellent companion.

    If you’re the entertainment, you will never be able to stop performing.

    • For me, the ultimate test was a woman’s ability to be in the same room with me and be content in silent company for an hour or two. If she can’t do that, then she’s not a true companion

      I agree with this. Comfortable silence is essential, and so is the ability to keep oneself occupied or amused. In fact, when I visit my father his gf reads tidbits aloud from the paper – the exact section I just read or am going to read next. I want to just bop her over the ahead and shout, “Quiet, woman!”

  • Jackie

    @Zach

    Zach, usually I respond to your comments with, well, giving you a bit of a hard time. 😉 In this case, all I have to say is that I am moved with compassion and hope that you find someone to truly love and to let yourself be loved–letting the mask drop forever– in return. I hope Date4 girl is it! 🙂

    If it doesn’t offend you, I would be glad to pray for your peace of heart and mind. Otherwise, please accept my best wishes. Hang in there, Zach. 🙂

  • Travis

    “I love women. I love their smiles, I love the way they laugh, I love that they’re compassionate, I love that they’re nicer than I am. Essentially, I love them for being most things that men aren’t. But I don’t get to see that part of them anymore. I get to see “fuck me harder” or “should I text him back at 2 AM?” or “you’re such a jerk! haha”. In the moment, it’s fun, but there’s nothing after. I want to see more of the former aspects, and less of the latter.”

    “and it’s just so risky to open up in any way to a woman, especially the good-looking ones. I’m not going to lie, I will only date a girl I’m very attracted to. I’ve found in my experience the better looking the woman, the less room for letting slip the “mask of game”. One moment of vulnerability that comes to early can sink you forever. So tempered by this experience, I find it very, very hard to EVER let it slip. I desperately want a girl with whom I can let it slip.”

    This. Right here. EXACTLY how I feel.

  • Ted D

    Zach at 151 – You and I feel pretty much exactly the same in terms of the desire to truly be ourselves with our SO’s. And yes, like you I agree that it is just about impossible to fully achieve. Unlike you, I simply avoided casual sex because I knew it would most often be as you described your last weekend to turn out: empty and terrible.

    VD – “For me, the ultimate test was a woman’s ability to be in the same room with me and be content in silent company for an hour or two. If she can’t do that, then she’s not a true companion. I can’t say my marriage is perfect or ideal, but I can say that it is generally idyllic and she is an excellent companion.”

    Cosigned. Lack of companionship is a deal breaker for me now. In the past I never really considered it, but my ex-wife taught me the value of being with a woman that simply likes my company without the need to provide her with entertainment.

  • Escoffier

    these threads occasionally remind me of how good I have it

  • J

    these threads occasionally remind me of how good I have it

    LOL. I hear that. The ‘sphere makes me appreciate my husband.

  • Ted D

    “these threads occasionally remind me of how good I have it

    LOL. I hear that. The ‘sphere makes me appreciate my husband.”

    I have a love/hate relationship with the ‘sphere. It often makes me VERY glad I found my wife, but at the same time it often instills doubt where there wasn’t and shouldn’t be any. NAWALT aside, its damn hard to read some of the stuff men go through and NOT wonder if I married the enemy.

  • You can add me too to the group of guys that are disgusted with how successful ‘game’ is in manipulating women. I now understand why beautiful women are disgusted with men who are entranced by their beauty: it’s pathetic that they can’t control their emotional brain. Which is funny, is ‘game’ men’s way of shit-testing women?

    I mean, I’m looking for a women who: 1.) I find attractive (which is athletic in my case), 2.) I can respect and admire, and 3.) loves herself. So hard to find all three!

    At present, I’m sort of exploring whether it’s reasonable to not use game to pick-up women, but only use it within the context of dating/relationships to build attractive, a la Athol Kay. It’s hard though because game becomes habitual and I haven’t really had many opportunities with relationship-quality women thus far, so I have no conclusions yet.

  • Ted D

    Mr. Nervous Toes – “At present, I’m sort of exploring whether it’s reasonable to not use game to pick-up women, but only use it within the context of dating/relationships to build attractive, a la Athol Kay. It’s hard though because game becomes habitual and I haven’t really had many opportunities with relationship-quality women thus far, so I have no conclusions yet.”

    Well my only experience with game is from Athol and used within the confines of a LTR, now marriage. So far, my experiments have been mostly successful in terms of relationship happiness. Now, I’ve largely skipped all the more “dark” game tactics for moral and obvious reasons. (I’ve already GOT her, I don’t need to use dark triad to pick her up. LOL) but I’ve put most of what Athol prescribes into play to some extent, and IMO it works. I’m sure to what extent it works varies from woman to woman, but my wife responds positively to most of the stuff I’ve tried.

    Keep in mind though: we were never unhappy together. So, unlike most of Athol’s target audience, I didn’t start behind the 8 ball needing to dig myself out of an attraction deficit.

    In terms of it all becoming habitual, I don’t know. To be honest, most of the stuff I stuck with from Athol were things I found natural, but was purposely downplaying in my relationships before. So, I’m not doing anything “new” so much as trying to just be more at ease and liberal with how I interact with my wife. Yes, I spent a LOT of time purposely downplaying/suppressing many of my natural tendencies because I thought that was what I was supposed to do when I got married. I have no problems playfully swatting my wife on the ass when I pass her in the kitchen, but I would never have considered it proper behavior in my last marriage. After all, such behavior was labelled sexist and piggish when I was growing up. Imagine my surprise when I found out my wife actually likes it…

  • I missed the dealers too. I have met some kids who I later learned were dealing. They’re everywhere.

    I was right in all but one rapist but the arson ones were the hardest. I wonder way…I got a 60% BTW

  • These close call stories are stunningly frightening. I have chills.

    I didn’t slept well last night…like reading Poe’s tales all over again.

  • Ted D

    “I missed the dealers too. I have met some kids who I later learned were dealing. They’re everywhere.”

    I can certainly spot the more average drug dealers, but living around an area so rife with illegal drugs I’ve learned that the ones I can easily spot ARE NOT the actual dealers, but more often than not the low end mules. Dealers come in all shapes and sizes.

  • Plain Jane

    “That’s why my wife’s first Christmas present after we were married came in 9mm. A few years later, she cracked me up when she came home one night and said that on the way home a man had seen her, tried to cut her off, and then stopped at a red light in front of her, got out of the car and started to approach her. She was just trying to decide whether to run over him with her Suburban or shoot him with her laser-sighted Glock when he abruptly turned around, got back in his car, and drove off. My theory is that he noticed the little NRA shield on the front bumper.”

    Precisely why college co-eds need to start packin’ if rape and sexual assault is an issue on campus.

    The effect will be two-fold; actual rapists will get gunned down (always a good thing), and potential false rape accusations can be avoided as young men will be extra cautious about “escalating”, particularly when alcohol is involved.

    @Susan, “First, I know personally of three cases of women having drunken sex and then claiming rape the next day, all false.”

    Legally one cannot give consent when drunk, so legally that would be rape. If the objection be raised, “neither can the man give consent when drunk” I say if he’s so drunk as to not be able to get it up in the first place, which happens in cases of inebriation, then there is no question of having any sort of sex at all to begin with.

    “I also have heard stories second hand on numerous occasions. It happens, there’s no question. ”

    Oh I’m sure it does happen. But not to the extent the Manosphere says it does. I’m also sure some of these “false allegation” are actually true. Of course the parents and family friends of the perpetrator will think it couldn’t possibly be true because “Johnny was always such a polite kid who wouldn’t hurt a fly”.

    My point is, WHY have colleges implemented boards and committees to deal with sexual assault instead of encouraging all alleged victims of such to go straight to the police and proper legal channels?

    Sexual assualt is a CRIME that needs to be dealt with through the law, if not at the point of a gun.

    If female students carry concealed weapons they can deal with it in the moment and put the mofo outta bizniz foreva. If on the other hand they go STRAIGHT to police and legal authorities, they can deal with it through our justice system.

    In either case there is absolutely no need for “campus committees” to get involved. They do nothing more than trivialize rape with “suspensions”.

    Like I said, guns and legal channels will prevent BOTH actual rapes from taking place AND false accusations. Its a win/win.

    These campus committees are a lose/lose.

    • Legally one cannot give consent when drunk, so legally that would be rape. If the objection be raised, “neither can the man give consent when drunk” I say if he’s so drunk as to not be able to get it up in the first place, which happens in cases of inebriation, then there is no question of having any sort of sex at all to begin with.

      That’s some pretty shaky logic there. The fact that a guy can get it up does NOT mean he’s sober. He could be in a coma, for heaven’s sake.

      My point is, WHY have colleges implemented boards and committees to deal with sexual assault instead of encouraging all alleged victims of such to go straight to the police and proper legal channels?

      Women are encouraged to go to the police. I’ve never heard of a school suggesting women wait until Monday morning and call the Dean of Students. The school gets involved when women complain to the school and demand that the boy be expelled or disciplined by the institution, separate from criminal court.

      If female students carry concealed weapons they can deal with it in the moment and put the mofo outta bizniz foreva. If on the other hand they go STRAIGHT to police and legal authorities, they can deal with it through our justice system.

      Guns on campus. Great idea.

  • Zach. This is what I’d say to you if no women were around: love requires that vulnerability, and dropping those shields. I have no problem with casual sex, but even I can see that too much of it is bad for you, like sexual junk food.

    But since women are here, I have to moderate my language: you’re halfway on your way to being ultimate woman’s fantasy… the reformed player! WTG!

  • Samael

    @ Zach
    HERE HERE!
    I couldn’t have said it better myself.

    My experience matches yours but without the bar hopping and ONS.. but the few casual FWB’s I’ve had, the sex was just meh at best and it was more like a way to kill time then anything else. The fuck buddys I’ve had fell super hard and always ended up with me being the asshole that just wanted sex….duh? (especially when the woman put herself in casual zone…derp)

    Pretty much the older I get the more I think about throwing in the towel… the crap seems to be never ending. In fact as I’ve become older I find myself to be even less social, especially after the whole red pill discovery.

    I don’t know exactly how to describe it but I would say it’s like the first Christmas after realizing that Santa isn’t real when you’re a kid… Yeah sure, it’s still fun and presents are nice to get and the family time is nice, but it sure isn’t magical anymore.

  • @Zach
    I might be wrong on this but the fact that you filled like four posts to talk about this might mean that you need to reevaluate your life a lot deeper than you think. Re-read what you wrote I’m sure what you said there has the answer to your doubts. Sometimes we need to hear/read things out loud before the answer sink in, just my two cents.

  • Plain Jane

    Sync-town. Just a few days ago I watched about 4 documentaries on Manson, and read several blogs.

    There are a lot of theories surrounding that case. Suffice it to say that everyone who was killed by that crew was personally known by the Manson Family and was part of the Hollywood underworld of drugs and possibly porn, including doe eyed Tate and the La Biancas.

  • Ted D

    Plain Jane – “Legally one cannot give consent when drunk, so legally that would be rape.”

    And this is precisely where I call BS. If a woman doesn’t want to “give consent” while too drunk to be logical, perhaps she should simply NOT get that damned drunk in mixed company? It is FAR too easy to put the blame on the man, who is probably also drunk, when in fact her decisions to drink in a place where she is likely to meet and sex up a stranger is HER decision alone.

    OTC – “Zach. This is what I’d say to you if no women were around: love requires that vulnerability, and dropping those shields. I have no problem with casual sex, but even I can see that too much of it is bad for you, like sexual junk food.

    But since women are here, I have to moderate my language: you’re halfway on your way to being ultimate woman’s fantasy… the reformed player! WTG!”

    ROFL. Absolutely spot on, and so very true on all counts. We simply can’t let women know we have an emotional center, because it will make us unattractive. Totally screwed up society we live in…

  • Abbot

    “Legally one cannot give consent when drunk, so legally that would be rape.”

    Thus
    Therefore
    Then

    All casual sex is rape

    Spring Break rape
    Vacation rape
    Night on the town rape
    Dorm rape
    Its what I wanted rape
    Empowerment rape
    Expression rape
    Embraced rape
    Exploration rape
    Discovering boundaries rape
    Mal parented rape
    Career comes first rape
    ?

    Sober casual sex is rare. Thus casual sex is rape.

    But so what? Nobody cares

  • Zach

    @Ana

    My life? I’m unhappy with my love life. That requires a re-evaluation of my love life. If I was unhappy with my job you wouldn’t tell me to re-evaluate my exercise regimen would you?

  • Plain Jane

    @ Susan, ”Women are encouraged to go to the police. I’ve never heard of a school suggesting women wait until Monday morning and call the Dean of Students. The school gets involved when women complain to the school and demand that the boy be expelled or disciplined by the institution, separate from criminal court. ”

    “In a June 2010 article dealing with matters at Reed College, two experts in how colleges handle sexual assaults criticized the system used at Reed, a highly secretive process based on a student Honor Code and enforced by a student Judicial Board.

    Though the board’s disciplinary recommendations are reviewed and implemented by Reed College President Colin Diver, the college does not investigate allegations of sexual misconduct with a trained investigator. Instead, students act as a fact-finding committee, holding hearings that often place victims and perpetrators in the same room. Many students are unaware that an alternative, faculty committee exists. Participants are barred from discussing their cases with anyone except a designated advocate, a procedural aide and medical professionals.

    Three students interviewed last year said the forced silence cut them off from friends and faculty they normally would have relied on for support after being assaulted. One reported the process was so secretive she wasn’t sure she could tell her mother about it. And all three were dissatisfied with the outcome of the hearings.

    The students also told similar stories of personal and academic upheaval after reporting sexual assault at Reed, which enrolls about 1,400 students. All three said they were discouraged from calling police after reporting sexual assault to authorities and instead were routed to the Judicial Board, where they faced intense pressure to keep quiet about their cases, with related documents stamped “confidential” and constant reminders about confidentiality rules.”

    http://www.publicintegrity.org/2011/04/08/3973/portland-college-students-demand-changes-sexual-assault-process

    • @Plain Jane

      You keep citing Reed College, which is surprising, because they’re about as liberal as Antioch was. Anyway, what else ya got? That’s just one school.

  • I guess my thought to Zach would be that, to be relationship material, as a man you have to rein in your polygamous instincts, be the better man, and say no to casual sex. In the same respect, I expect a women to rein in her hypergamous instincts if I’m going to consider her to be relationship material. I.e. men have to stop playing the field before they can be in a relationship, women have to stop looking for Mr. Right before they can be in a relationship.

    It’s a matter of exercising your rational brain and overpowering your base instincts. That’s what separates the humans from the animals, among homo sapiens.

  • My life? I’m unhappy with my love life. That requires a re-evaluation of my love life.

    That is what I meant. I didn’t added the word love because I though it was obvious. My bad.

  • Jason773

    Ted,

    You and I feel pretty much exactly the same in terms of the desire to truly be ourselves with our SO’s. And yes, like you I agree that it is just about impossible to fully achieve. Unlike you, I simply avoided casual sex because I knew it would most often be as you described your last weekend to turn out: empty and terrible.

    I think you CAN truly be yourself with some women, but that’s only if you have internalized some aspects of game. If you haven’t internalized it, and have to keep putting up a front, it just isn’t worth it in the long run.

    And obviously, the good ones are the ones where you don’t need to always have your game face on. You can at times be vulnerable and she will appreciate you for this.

  • John G

    Gun talk is risky business. Phrases like “…put the mofo outta bizniz foreva…” seem trite. Are you gonna shoot him to death before? That’s illegal. Are you gonna shoot him after? Vigilante much? Illegal too. Gonna whip it out when you are both naked? Highly unlikely. Prolly should stow the ballistics bravado. But what the hell, it’s the internet. Blab away!

    • @John G

      Prolly should stow the ballistics bravado. But what the hell, it’s the internet. Blab away!

      Exactly, Plain Jane just tries to stir the pot.

  • Travis

    @PJ,
    “My point is, WHY have colleges implemented boards and committees to deal with sexual assault instead of encouraging all alleged victims of such to go straight to the police and proper legal channels?”

    The reason the colleges have boards to deal with these issues is because that way they can discipline the guy without pesky things like trials, lawyers, due process, etc. According to the new Obama administration guidelines, (as Susan pointed out earlier) colleges now need only a 51% probability of wrongdoing to find a guy guilty of rape. Unlike in a court of law where you’re innocent until proven guilty. This way the burden of proof is basically on the guy to prove that he DIDN’T rape her. Which is pretty much impossible. See? You should totally be in favor of the committees. This way the accused have no rights, which it’s pretty obvious that you’re in favor of…
    I gotta’ be honest. People like you scare the hell out of me. I have a feeling all it would take for you to be happy to blow my head off would be one woman pointing her finger at me and saying “He got me drunk and had sex with me.”

  • Plain Jane

    “Guns on campus. Great idea.”

    Gun Control: The idea that a woman found raped and strangled with her pantyhose is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker wound up with a bullet hole.

  • Ted D

    Jason773 – “I think you CAN truly be yourself with some women, but that’s only if you have internalized some aspects of game. If you haven’t internalized it, and have to keep putting up a front, it just isn’t worth it in the long run.”

    True, but it is a bit of chicken and egg. Internalizing game will actual change a man to some extent, and that change may very well make it so that is weakest emotional vulnerability is no longer AS severe as it was. Not saying that is a bad thing, but pointing out that one cannot internalize any new concept without it changing something about themselves.

  • Jason773

    and it’s just so risky to open up in any way to a woman, especially the good-looking ones. I’m not going to lie, I will only date a girl I’m very attracted to. I’ve found in my experience the better looking the woman, the less room for letting slip the “mask of game”. One moment of vulnerability that comes to early can sink you forever. So tempered by this experience, I find it very, very hard to EVER let it slip. I desperately want a girl with whom I can let it slip.

    This really is a huge problem, and requires such delicate balance that even the most seasoned player (non-psychopathic) can easily slip up. It kind of sucks to say, but it’s almost as if you have to break these women down psychologically and emotionally before they break you down or they sink you. If you can get to that point then you can open up, but sometimes it isn’t even worth it.

  • Zach

    @PlainJane

    Hmmm, I’ve had girls go down on me while I was drunk and had difficulty getting it up. Perhaps I should file several police reports? I obviously wasn’t able to give my consent….

  • Jason773

    To add, “break down” is a harsh word, but I truly mean it. The likes of Zach and I are going after women in the 8+ category as LTR material, and these girls, growing up in a current Western culture like the US, have pretty much been given a free pass to do anything they want with their lives (and most of them take advantage of this). Other girls envy them and befriend them, most guys beta orbit them incessantly, they get free dates, dinners, gifts, favors, etc. thrown at them constantly, and they are barraged every day by compliments.

    If you find one that is still grounded, feminine, sincere and loyal, lock her down if you can.

  • Plain Jane

    Mr. Nervous Toes, “I guess my thought to Zach would be that, to be relationship material, as a man you have to rein in your polygamous instincts, be the better man, and say no to casual sex. ”

    Not really. All he needs to do is find a woman who is into open marriage. Then they both can have their cake and eat it too.

    John G, “Are you gonna shoot him to death before? That’s illegal. Are you gonna shoot him after? Vigilante much? Illegal too. Gonna whip it out when you are both naked? ”

    None of the above. I would shoot when I said no and he forced his person upon me. Its called “self-defense”. Google it.

    Travis, I’ve provided 3 links in this thread that describe the exact opposite of what you are saying taking place. Colleges are encouraging alleged victims not to go to the police and legal channels so that they can prevent any sort of controversy associated with the college name brand.

    Justice is NOT being served on these committees to the alleged victims and alleged perpetrators are getting away with suspensions from summer school which they had no intention of attending anyway. Whoop de doo!

    Sexual assault is a crime that needs to be investigated to the full extent of the law, not “mediated” between a victim and a perp by his/her “counselor”.

    “I gotta’ be honest. People like you scare the hell out of me. I have a feeling all it would take for you to be happy to blow my head off would be one woman pointing her finger at me and saying “He got me drunk and had sex with me.”

    Puh-leese. I am so sick of you anti-self-defense types. You would rather see people beaten, raped, even killed than defend rightfully defend themselves.

    • @Plain Jane

      Rein it in or I’m going to put you in mod.

  • Plain Jane

    @ Zach, ” Hmmm, I’ve had girls go down on me while I was drunk and had difficulty getting it up. Perhaps I should file several police reports? I obviously wasn’t able to give my consent….”

    You’d be within your legal rights to.

  • Zach

    @Jason 185

    Maybe I should rephrase. When I refer to the “mask”, I’m not talking about some act I’m putting on that’s not who I am. I’m talking about one side of who I am. I am charming, I am a bit of a dick, I am a pretty good conversationalist. That’s also the side of me I present on dates, because that’s the side that attracts women. The side of me that can talk extensively about China’s economic problems isn’t the side that gets a girl to agree to date 2. My issue is that letting that other side peek out just a second too early is so, so risky. The complaint is that I have to be that first side of me ALL the time, to keep constantly pushing her attraction buttons, and not be able to just relax and either say nothing, or talk about something that’s not pushing her buttons. It’s exhausting and disheartening. I can’t have a fulfilling relationship with a woman based on me teasing her and cracking jokes all day. It’s like that scene in 40 Year-Old Virgin, where Paul Rudd and Seth Rogen are playing “you know how I know you’re gay?” It’s fun, it’s funny, and it’s not a misrepresentation of who they are, but do you think they’d want to sit there playing that game every single time they saw each other? However, that seems like what you have to do in this day and age to get anywhere with women.

    FYI, with my ex I was definitely at that point where we could just hang out and not say much. The problem was, I got to the point where there wasn’t much left to say. She wasn’t into a lot of the things I was into, and so while I could talk about econ, work , or whatever, it was generally a one-sided convo.

  • J

    I have a love/hate relationship with the ‘sphere. It often makes me VERY glad I found my wife, but at the same time it often instills doubt where there wasn’t and shouldn’t be any. NAWALT aside, its damn hard to read some of the stuff men go through and NOT wonder if I married the enemy

    Don’t let this stuff make you paranoid, Ted. It’s the aggregated bad experiences of many men, not the average relationship between most couples that’s portrayed.

  • Zach

    And to follow up on that, the first side leads to casual sex, which I find increasingly awful and unfulfilling. What I mean is that casual sex has turned me into “cocktail party mode” 24/7 around women. I hate that.

    • @Zach

      What I mean is that casual sex has turned me into “cocktail party mode” 24/7 around women. I hate that.

      Here’s the thing. You’re advertising for the (incredibly hypergamous) girls you’re getting. Perhaps you’re fishing with the wrong bait. It might be an interesting experiment to be more laid back and see what happens. I wouldn’t go so far as to introduce the Chinese economy as a topic. (When I was 11 my father sat me down for a “talk.” He said, “It’s time you knew about the Federal Reserve.”)

      In a way, it seems more alpha to me to stop delivering more dominance than you actually feel – the women are controlling the script. Even though you approach and ask them out, there’s a reverse sort of incongruence here. IDK, I’m just thinking aloud.

      If you were to be yourself in social situations the way you are with people you don’t plan to have sex with (and that is clearly still pretty damned alpha) I wonder if you might connect with someone who tends to be less sexually aggressive and likes to take things a little more slowly. Someone more down to earth.

      I know very attractive women like the ones you and Jason describe, but I also know some who do go for a less alpha approach, and they take the sex more slowly, tend to have LTRs of at least a year, etc.

      What do you think?

  • Plain Jane

    Zach, “Maybe I should rephrase. When I refer to the “mask”, I’m not talking about some act I’m putting on that’s not who I am. I’m talking about one side of who I am. I am charming, I am a bit of a dick, I am a pretty good conversationalist. That’s also the side of me I present on dates, because that’s the side that attracts women. The side of me that can talk extensively about China’s economic problems isn’t the side that gets a girl to agree to date 2.”

    In other words, you dumb yourself down. Which means you are attracting women who are attracted to dumb men or men who can at least act dumb.

    • In other words, you dumb yourself down. Which means you are attracting women who are attracted to dumb men or men who can at least act dumb.

      Best comment by Plain Jane ever.

  • Jason773

    Zach,

    I understood what you meant and I’m in complete agreement. Like me, I’m sure you can be a slightly cocky asshole and jerk sometimes, but you aren’t 100% that (maybe 30, 40, 50%, idk). You just need to portray that because who knows at what percentage she loses interest. Like I said, very delicate balance.

  • Zach

    Also, re the whole dating scene. It is completely apt to describe it as a war. It’s combat dating. You have no idea the number of times I’ve heard from my friends (guys and girls) “She took two hours to text me back, so I’m going to wait three” or “I’m going to say I can’t make tonight because he canceled on me last time”. It’s tit-for-tat every time, the whole goal being to get the upper hand.

    • @Zach

      Also, re the whole dating scene. It is completely apt to describe it as a war. It’s combat dating. You have no idea the number of times I’ve heard from my friends (guys and girls) “She took two hours to text me back, so I’m going to wait three” or “I’m going to say I can’t make tonight because he canceled on me last time”. It’s tit-for-tat every time, the whole goal being to get the upper hand.

      It’s true, the whole scene is guided by the Principle of Least Interest. Which is fake in itself. Everyone pretending not to care. It’s so dysfunctional and upside down. That’s the problem with guys running aloof Game. The women act aloof right back. Or maybe the women are bitchy so the guys have to be assholes? Chicken or egg.

  • Jason773

    Zach,

    FYI, with my ex I was definitely at that point where we could just hang out and not say much. The problem was, I got to the point where there wasn’t much left to say. She wasn’t into a lot of the things I was into, and so while I could talk about econ, work , or whatever, it was generally a one-sided convo.

    Idk, this is where I differ, and why I have friends for these things. I think it’s a telling sign if she isn’t interested at all, but she I don’t need a girl to be all gung-ho with all my interests. I’m probably never going to find a girl who is really interested in sports, psych, weightlifting, nutrition and poker, but the fact that she is genuinely happy to listen to me, watch me and participate sometimes because of my interest is more than enough for me.

  • Jason773

    And dude, you’re in NYC. That place is a cesspool of terrible, hypergamous, carousel riding women. The men aren’t much better either. You might need to get out of there to find anything good.

  • Travis

    “Justice is NOT being served on these committees to the alleged victims and alleged perpetrators are getting away with suspensions from summer school which they had no intention of attending anyway. Whoop de doo!

    Sexual assault is a crime that needs to be investigated to the full extent of the law, not “mediated” between a victim and a perp by his/her “counselor”.

    Sexual assault IS a crime that is investigated to the full extent of the law. These committees are in ADDITION to the penalties that can result from criminal prosecution. If a woman feels she’s been raped, she’s still free to go to the police. But if she has nothing more than her word, chances are her case isn’t going to go anywhere. Fortunately with these committees, she doesn’t need any evidence.

    “Puh-leese. I am so sick of you anti-self-defense types. You would rather see people beaten, raped, even killed than defend rightfully defend themselves.”

    Riiiight. Because beating a woman, raping her (I mean actually raping her…), or killing her is the same as the two of you having sex while drunk. And for the record, I’m not against using guns to defend yourself. I own several.

    I have no problems with women carrying guns for protection. But the vast majority of them are sane. Therefore, I wouldn’t be worried them blowing my head off for no other reason than I had sex with a girl who had been drinking. That comment was pointed at you specifically. You seem a bit unbalanced.

  • John G

    “Google it” Aw snap! What a comeback! Kind of a broad subject isn’t it? 143 million results? At any rate it’s a very trite answer to a very complex granular situational subject. Some people put rape into the ‘jump out of the bushes and get dragged away’ category. Those rapes are not that common. The rapes that are common are ones that involve someone that is known by the victim or drug/alcohol involvement. If you have been drinking and shoot someone in ‘self-defense’, your story is even shakier so you should reconsider that situation. Are you going to shoot to death someone that you and your family knows and maybe even respects? So in summation, defending yourself with a firearm while in the process of being sexually assaulted is not a good strategy. Guns are great, I love ’em to death and I believe they have a place in a persons repertoire to protect themselves. Just not that scenario.

  • You seem a bit unbalanced.

    And the HUS award for the understatement of the year goes to…. Travis!
    *Applause* 😀

  • Plain Jane

    “Are you going to shoot to death someone that you and your family knows and maybe even respects?”

    Why not? Surely you are not suggesting that sexual assault is not a crime just because it can be perpetrated by someone you might know or someone your family, for whatever reasons, “respects”?!

    ” So in summation, defending yourself with a firearm while in the process of being sexually assaulted is not a good strategy. ”

    You have failed to explain why its not a good strategy.

  • Plain Jane

    “Sexual assault IS a crime that is investigated to the full extent of the law. These committees are in ADDITION to the penalties that can result from criminal prosecution. If a woman feels she’s been raped, she’s still free to go to the police. But if she has nothing more than her word, chances are her case isn’t going to go anywhere. Fortunately with these committees, she doesn’t need any evidence.”

    And fortunately for the alleged rapist he is NOT going to jail!!!! What about this do you not get? These alleged rapists are being suspended for a few months from school for gods sake! And that too, summer school, which they have no intention of attending in the first place.

    You are trying to make it seem that without evidence these men are being sent to jail. This is NOT the case!

    And again, back to the drunk thing. Are you not aware that according to our laws it is illegal to have sex with a drunk person because legally they cannot consent?

    If the law is such does it not behoove you to avoid sexually touching drunk women and refrain entirely from attempting sex with them – FOR YOUR OWN LEGAL PROTECTION?

    What about any of the above is hard to understand?

  • Zach

    @Jason

    Yeah, NYC is probably more that way than anywhere else. BUT the women are a lot hotter. I’ll take the trade off.

    Re: my ex, it wasn’t that we didn’t have enough shared interests. It that she didn’t really seem to be that interested in anything. She was interested in looking good (worked out a ton, clothes, etc), a couple of reality tv shows, and partying. I need a woman who has at least some intellectual interests. For instance, if she was deeply invested in Modern art, I would’ve been completely down with that. Not my cup of tea, but it’s something we could have had long, intelligent discussions about. I need someone who will stimulate my mind, not necessarily replicate it. She just didn’t do that enough.

    • I would like to take a moment to point out that Zach is a man who clearly requires a very intelligent woman.

      +1 for smart girls.

  • Zach

    @PlainJane

    I’m perfectly aware of what the law says on inebriation and consent. I just believe it’s a really, really stupid law. Prohibition was the law of the land in the 1920s. Doesn’t mean it was right or popular.

    And if you take it the other way, I’ve never had sex with a drunk woman when I myself was sober. So in that sense, we raped each other. Should we both go to jail? It’s a far, far more nuanced subject than the black and white you’re trying to make it out to be.

  • John G

    Gosh, I never said it wasn’t a crime if someone you know rapes you. Of course it is and the State can go hammer and tong against that person. As to why a firearm is not a good defense against rape is that in order to be there for you, it has to be on your person, not in your purse or nightstand, on your person all day and night regardless of what you’re wearing, and where you’re at. You would find that exceptionally difficult to do. For everyone interested here is a website I recommend. See, I did the googling for y’all.
    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

  • Plain Jane

    “Exactly, Plain Jane just tries to stir the pot.”

    I’m not trying to stir the pot in this instance, Susan. I believe in the right to carry arms and defend oneself against violence. I also truly believe that if concealed carry was not uncommon amongst women, there would be less assaults and less false assault accusations as well.

    Everyone would be much, much more cautious, and that goes for BOTH men and women.

  • Having a gun is a huge responsibility. It is not something you take out casually and use to threaten. If I take my gun out and point it at anyone, it would be a really big deal. I would have to absolutely be certain that I am, or someone in my family is, in immediate danger.

    Travis, I don’t trust headcases with guns either. 😛

  • Plain Jane

    “You keep citing Reed College, which is surprising, because they’re about as liberal as Antioch was. Anyway, what else ya got? That’s just one school.”

    Susan, on page 1 of this thread I give 2 other links. Both are from the same website which has several examples of this new trend on college campuses nationwide of dealing internally with cases of sexual assault, so as to avoid controversy and the sullying of the school’s brand name. I do not agree with that. I believe a sexual assault victim should go directly to the police and through legal channels as soon as he or she can, and not involve their school staff or committees in any way whatsoever.

    Crimes need to be dealt with through trained legal professionals. Not artsy fartsy college types who want to “mediate” and “deflect”.

  • Plain Jane

    John G, “As to why a firearm is not a good defense against rape is that in order to be there for you, it has to be on your person, not in your purse or nightstand, on your person all day and night regardless of what you’re wearing, and where you’re at. ”

    Agreed. That’s called “concealed carry”. Again, if more women carried concealed and used it to protect themselves against assault, we’d see less assault and less false accusations of assault.

    For the life of me I can’t fathom why anyone would have an issue with this.

    And for the record, one does not have to aim to kill. One can just aim to demobilize, such as shoot in the foot, and then call the police.

  • Plain Jane

    Zach, “I’m perfectly aware of what the law says on inebriation and consent. I just believe it’s a really, really stupid law.”

    The law does not care what your personal opinions on it are. The bottom line for every male accused of “false rape” in the case of sex with a drunk woman is that the law says it indeed was “rape”. Now if knowing this men are still stupid enough to go ahead and try to sexually escalate with drunk women, what can be said about those men?

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “OK, I have an eerie story for you. Not as creepy as yours, but I can tell you it freaked me out as a kid.”

    Not as creepy? Are you kidding?!!!

    • Not as creepy? Are you kidding?!!!

      Well, we were blissfully ignorant at least. Those other women were in the car with a serial killer and he was getting aroused in their presence!

  • Plain Jane

    Zach, you have to dumb down yourself to get a date with women. Similarly many women complain they have to dumb down themselves to get a date with men. You call it showing another side of your personality, but is it the side you most prefer? Is it the side you live in for the bulk of your day? If not, its a form of false advertisement and ultimately a strain on your being.

    Same goes for Sassy or other women who have to “practice” being more girly or whatever so as not to put men off.

    Lets say both you and Sassy practice doing this with particular people, they date you and the dating transitions into a relationship. How long will you or Sassy be able to present only that side of yourself? Meaning the side of yourselves that do not comprise the bulk of your personality?

    How about we all just act naturally, and those of us who are acting naturally will attract others who are acting naturally?

  • Plain Jane

    Was this the thead discussing James Bond as Dark Triad personified? I’ve only watched one Bond film but am familiar with the general character line and he’s a good guy who fights bad guys, so how is that dark triad?

    Casual sex? Women are up for it too, its not like his character promises the moon to women who want to marry him, then skips town. People who are open and honest about wanting short term flings and casual sex are not bad. Its the deceivers who promise more who are bad.

    I see some men are confused by women who are benevolent towards men who want just short term flings or even shorter casual sex like one night stands. What these men don’t understand is that many women are also into short term and ALL women appreciate honesty. There’s no need to be jealous of or confused by Bond-like men’s popularity with women.

    Honesty is always the best policy and you might be pleasantly surprised by the amount of women who are into short term too!

    PS: Idris Elba needs to be the next James Bond. He’d go down as the sexiest. That’s hella sure.

  • Benton

    There was a time when I believed that men had a responsibility to protect women against psychopaths. But not anymore.
    I have seen too many women manipulate and take advantage of men. I have seen too many women ignore nice guys and go after the players in the hope that they could change them. I have seen too many of those scorned women turn into man-hating bitches who put down normal guys and then, once again, fall for the players.
    I don’t mean to suggest that he is a psychopath, but look at Bill Clinton. He humiliated his wife by having an affair, and not one feminist criticized him. But those same women then demand that regular guys do everything for them. Just look at how both National Conventions pander to women!
    Just look at this article from the NY Times:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/opinion/men-who-needs-them.html
    According to that article, all men are useless except for those who are “entertaining” (e.g. psychopaths and players). So if men are so “useless,” then I guess women don’t need them to care for their safety. YOYO

    • @Benton

      Fair enough, I can’t disagree with anything you say. It is not any man’s job to protect women against psychopaths. I wrote the post to explain to women that it is their own responsibility. You want a psychopath? Be my guest, but don’t say I didn’t warn you.

      Re Bill Clinton, I suspect he would score high on the PPI. He’s definitely a narcissist, though he plays his role expertly, laying on the empathy. In fact, in contemporary America I don’t think it’s possible to get to POTUS without a fair amount of psychopathy. What an indictment.

      That article at the NYXs is disgusting.

  • @ VD

    “You don’t know what you’re talking about. Sociopaths feel no shame. They can’t be humiliated. You can catch them in the most absurd lie, and they will shrug it off with a smile and a complete absence of remorse.’

    On the contrary, I know exactly what I’m talking about. The tendency towards being a psychopath is probably inborn, but it is actualized by how they are treated as babies and children.

    They are humiliated and shamed until they develop a psychopathic self to cover their feelings of humiliation. Grandiosity on top, shame and humiliation underneath. The feelings shame and humiliation are buried so deeply these people cannot be treated.

    All psychopaths (e.g. serial killers) have been horribly abused as children.

    One of the most embarrassing things about the Manosphere is the ignorance of evil, which they pretend is good. Witness the nonsense about idealizing the “Alpha,” which the Lost Boys of the Manosphere can’t even define as either good or bad.

  • Lokland

    @VD

    “For me, the ultimate test was a woman’s ability to be in the same room with me and be content in silent company for an hour or two. If she can’t do that, then she’s not a true companion. I can’t say my marriage is perfect or ideal, but I can say that it is generally idyllic and she is an excellent companion.”

    I’ll nod my head to this as well.

    @Ted

    “I have a love/hate relationship with the ‘sphere. It often makes me VERY glad I found my wife, but at the same time it often instills doubt where there wasn’t and shouldn’t be any. NAWALT aside, its damn hard to read some of the stuff men go through and NOT wonder if I married the enemy.”

    I understand this feeling exactly. I don’t really care about the enemy bit so much. Enemies are easy and I’ve accumulated enough of to be used to it.

    I do fear betrayal.

  • @Zach #151

    One moment of vulnerability that comes to early can sink you forever. So tempered by this experience, I find it very, very hard to EVER let it slip. I desperately want a girl with whom I can let it slip.

    Amen and Amen.

    The worst, the very worst, is that you become a salesman. You know you must be honest in these interactions. You know there’s a can of lines to convey this. And that can lines has only one label on it.

    Spin.

    How the fuck are you gonna spin this to her.

    Everytime you sell yourself, you become a little bit cheaper. And everytime you’re bought you become less of a rarity.

    Sad really.

  • @Plain Jane.

    The woman in this clip reminded me so much of you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yLiGbJLWi8

  • VD

    On the contrary, I know exactly what I’m talking about. The tendency towards being a psychopath is probably inborn, but it is actualized by how they are treated as babies and children.

    No, you don’t. You quite clearly haven’t even read Hare.

    All psychopaths (e.g. serial killers) have been horribly abused as children.

    And here you prove you know nothing. The vast majority of psychopaths have not been abused in any way. The statistics prohibit that possibility. People are born psychopathic. Go read the literature before you continue spouting off in obvious ignorance. You’re quite clearly just trying to attack Alphas as psychopaths, which suggests you are a BETA: Gamma.

    Guns on campus. Great idea.

    They’re already there, Susan. I am entirely confident you understand that despite being illegal, there are also drugs on campus. I doubt you will be shocked by the news that students under 21 have also been known to drink alcohol on occasion. That being said, Plain Jane is incorrect and legal campus carry won’t change the rape statistics at all, because so little so-called rape on campus is actual forcible rape.

    I’ve probably taken more women shooting than anyone here – by the way, women LOVE being taught how to shoot, they often respond in an overtly sexual manner to firing a gun – and I encourage women to carry, but it is simply not realistic to imagine that campus carry will reduce campus rape. Among other things, it is not legal to be drunk and carry, so no student who cares enough about the law to not carry illegally now is going to carry in any situation where they expect to be drinking.

    • @VD

      Guns on campus. Great idea.

      They’re already there, Susan

      Ha! When I wrote that comment I thought, “Vox will call me out on this.” I hear what you’re saying, but I feel extremely uncomfortable with the idea of sanctioning gun use for 18 year olds. As you point out, there is already rampant drug use and binge drinking. I feel certain that homicide rate would skyrocket if students carried guns as a matter of course.

  • Deli

    Ok, the States are not my home country, so I am hardly the one to judge, but I can agree on one thing with PJ – dura lex sed lex.
    “Law is harsh – but it is the law” (even if it’s stupid)

    If you don’t like the law – and prohibition of sex while under influence of common alcohol is REALLY stupid, glad we don’t have it around here – you should change the law. Not violate it and hope it gets better by itself.

    Now, not that this is something new – during the USSR period we had a law that made gay sex a criminal offense (for both men involved – and yes, I believe it only covered gay sex, not lesbian sex – but I might be mistaken). But in the later years of USSR courts stopped prosecuting people for homosexuality, because social pressure to remove it was already very intense – but the law itself was still in the books. In the words of one of our greatest actresses Faina Ranevskay “I pity the land where a man can’t fully decide for himself what to do with his asshole”

    But still: if the current wording of sex. assault law is stupid and invites its misuse in the hands of people driven by malice – that this is a pretty fucking big deal and get people rising up to change it.
    But it does not give one a right to violate it.

    P.S.
    The common joke we pass around with my colleagues is that people should be demanded to pass an exam that would culminate in receiving a “Genitalia ownership license”. It seems that a misplaced dick or vagina can do as much damage as a recklessly driven car – yet you are just given one at birth and sent into the big wide world to do as you please.

  • @ VD

    “And here you prove you know nothing. The vast majority of psychopaths have not been abused in any way.”

    Completely clueless.

    All psychopaths have been abused. You might want to try serial killer FBI profilers like John Douglas, or psychiatrists like James Gilligan’s 35 years of research on murderers. All agree on the humiliation and shame covered up by grandiosity and a lack of conscience.

    Ignorance is bliss, eh, VD? Another Lost Boy of the Manosphere. There are a lot of you.

  • Sai

    re: false rape
    I didn’t know it was so bad! Why didn’t anybody tell me it was so bad?!
    …there were sites, I could have looked. Now I know and knowing is half the battle. This is about as scary as Ted Bundy, only in a different way.

    @David Collard
    “I know that my level of empathy varies a lot depending on the situation and the type of person I might empathise with it.”
    One lady at the place I used to work lost her husband in Afghanistan. Somebody set up a fund for the family and I’ll still make a donation from time to time… but if somebody who can afford gold teeth is asking me for change I’m going to make up a lame excuse.
    (I liked Moore better than Craig… but I liked Connery most of all. 🙂 I am not one of those who complained about how he treated girls or anybody else.)

    @Abbot
    “Like Napoleon and Hitler marching into Russia, they are refusing to retreat from these blatantly failing and humiliating campaigns that only serve to undermine all prior gains.”
    That means the feminists are going to get theirs in a big way at some point and I’m getting the &@#% out of the way. Russians can be scary when they’re mad.

    @Anacaona
    “Some people are not fully human, in the sense that all the things the superior brain does that makes us try to be decent to each other and helped create civilization (empathy, compassion, sense of justice…) are just not there, are there but can’t connect/command the reptilian brain or are so thin that the connection is meaningless, intermittent or so fragile that some events might severe them forever, like a traumatic childhood.”
    (Or a crazy lab accident.) I like this idea.
    Have you been to TVTropes? It’s an absolute black hole for your time, but it has so many pages on types of villains, schemes, things that make them snap… Try it when you have a few extra hours and/or extreme self-control.

    @Susan
    “Sean Connery was the sexiest Bond ever. He’s still sexy:”
    I KNEW I WASN’T ALONE~

    “Another request for femininity. Girls, are you listening?”
    I’ll try… but it’s hard to make me cry unless it involves onions or Oscar Schindler. I wish they put this stuff into bottles (or a book) or something.

    @VD
    “For me, the ultimate test was a woman’s ability to be in the same room with me and be content in silent company for an hour or two. If she can’t do that, then she’s not a true companion.”
    Books are everyone’s friends 😀
    (seriously, that’s a lot of pressure on the guy)

    @Zach
    I don’t have anything of real value to saw besides “aww…” (They could learn something talking about the Chinese economy, I still don’t get how the government hated Russia and hates Cuba but can’t stay away from China. But if they don’t want to learn from you, you have better things to do than force them.) I hope your love life gets better.

    @Benton
    I hope you would protect your mother (unless she was a crappy parent), but you don’t owe the sort of women often discussed here anything. They’d just be hostile and ungrateful.

    @Deli
    You live/d in the USSR? What was it like? I mean, the books say one thing, and then there are people who say they actually miss it, but I think of gulags and wonder how that could be…
    The car thing is funny but true.

  • Passer_By
    • @Passer By

      I don’t know how I missed that, but I’ve never seen that before. So there you go… sexy psychopath.

  • Plain Jane

    Marellus, I don’t see the connection in that video clip. I can’t relate to any part of it. Its not my culture at all.

    VD, ” That being said, Plain Jane is incorrect and legal campus carry won’t change the rape statistics at all, because so little so-called rape on campus is actual forcible rape.”

    Sigh. The point is not just being able to whip out a gun in the event of rape. I said that it would make everyone, both male and female, more mindful of their actions.

    Another commenter described how a man in road rage got out of his car and approached the car of a woman, then stopped mid-way, turned around and went back to his car. That woman had an NRA sticker on the front of her car which the commenter believes may have been the factor in the man turning around. Just the thought that she may have had a gun deterred him from possibly committing a crime against her.

    The most crime takes place in cities with the most stringent gun control laws. Why? Thugs know that law abiding citizens are not packing so that emboldens them to commit crimes willy nilly.

    Guns are not the problem. Criminals are. Crimes are deterred when criminals think their own lives might possibly be in danger.

    How does this tie into the so-called “grey area” of alleged false accusations on college campuses. If my research is correct (I provided links) then the so-called “false allegations” talked about ad infinitum in the M-sphere are often linked to the consumption of alcohol. Women, sober or drunk, are not packing. On top of that they are officially discouraged by their college staff from pursuing a legal case, going to police etc, in favor of “mediation” by campus committees and counselors.

    Male students therefore know that if they attempt sex with a drunk co-ed, they won’t get shot, nor will they even be reported to police. At most they will get “suspended” for a semester, most likely summer school, which they don’t plan on attending anyway. Big freakin’ deal!

    Now, if there was a zero tolerance policy – women were encouraged to either carry concealed or go straight to the po-po, do you think college men would increase or decrease their attempts at “escalation” with a fellow female student?

    Its a preventative measure more than anything else. One which would decrease both rape and false rape allegations.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Ted and Lokland

    ““I have a love/hate relationship with the ‘sphere. It often makes me VERY glad I found my wife, but at the same time it often instills doubt where there wasn’t and shouldn’t be any. NAWALT aside, its damn hard to read some of the stuff men go through and NOT wonder if I married the enemy.”

    I understand this feeling exactly. I don’t really care about the enemy bit so much. Enemies are easy and I’ve accumulated enough of to be used to it.

    I do fear betrayal.”

    Thirded. Like Dogsquat once said, reading this stuff can put you in a heightened state of readiness. You read a lot of bad stories, and then if you have some negative experiences yourself they all just get compounded several-fold.

    But the stories also remind how you have something worth keeping.

    I’ve also found myself becoming disgusted with the behavior of some women since starting to implement the red pill. I do not intend to cheat, and they fact that some women try to push that is insulting to me.

  • Zach

    @Susan 220

    I don’t think flirting is necessarily advertising for hypergamy. In fact, in this day and age, asking out on dates tends to be a pretty big LTR-interest signal. Even my friends who are the most STR oriented and take girls home from bars to f*ck ask girls on dates if they are actually interested in them personality-wise.

    Also, yeah I’m sure there are some attractive girls who don’t go the hypergamy route, but they’re few and far between. Even the smart hot girls I know still date the football stars, the shady dbags, and the frat stars.

    Also @PlainJane and Susan, no one “acts normally” when dealing with the opposite sex. I don’t flirt with my male friends (I hope you don’t flirt with you female friends). Flirting in and of itself is thus a non “normal” behavior. Also, a lot of my interaction with my guy friends would be classified as “flirting” if directed at a girl. It’s teasing, poking fun at, “you know how I know you’re gay” type of stuff. It’s how most men interact with each other. The difference is that with my guy friends, I know I can turn it off at any time and it’s fine. With girls, I’ve become so hard-wired into not turning it off for risk of losing attraction that it’s almost all I present to them.

    And further @Susan. I think it’s a tricky path that you’re outlining. This past weekend, I was out on Long Island at a friend’s house with 30 people. It was about 18 girls, 12 guys. I was intentionally staying celibate because of my interest in 4-date girl (her ex was there, loong story). I thus basically did not flirt with any of them, and treated them like the guys. At the end of the weekend, I’d had to turn down one girl coming after me and I had a second give me her number and tell me to call her when I’m in Seattle next week (unsolicited). So in that case, it worked. However, that situation is very, very rare. It’s an enclosed environment, with no outside actors, everyone’s hanging out with each other all weekend, and can observe how I interact and behave. In most social settings, surrounded by complete strangers, you must be proactive. No girl is going to come over and hang out next to your table at a bar to watch you talk with your friends. So while it can be effective, it’s only for very particular situations.

    Secondly, acting as if a girl were just a friend is the VERY best way to get yourself in the friend zone. Just had to say it. That tactic only works on girls who are really used to getting hit on, and only if they’re the only one you’re not hitting on. And re: taking it slow. Also practically a death sentence with most girls. As a guy, it’s a lose-lose proposition to not push for sex. You either get tagged as a wimp, or as not being attracted to her. Meanwhile, it’s win-win to push for sex. It conveys dominance, and attraction. It’s the girl’s job to slow it down, not the guy’s.

    @Susan 230
    You’d like the song “Smart Girls” by Weezer.

    • @Zach

      IDK, people fall in love, even in NYC. It sounds like you’ve got your scene, and you like it. You’ll figure it out, as Vox said.

      I just think the “real Zach” is asking for a bit of airtime. You might let him out and see what happens.

      I love Weezer. Island in the Sun is one of my favorite songs of all time. That song is the summer of 2002, Martha’s Vineyard. It was one of those bands that both we and our kids loved.

  • Zach

    @PlainJane

    I honestly think women telling men to “be themselves” was the entire cause of the PUA movement. It’s just about the worst advice ever if you’re looking to meet women, and shows how un-self-aware most women are of what they’re attracted to. No one in dating is ever “themselves” 100%. Everyone puts forward the best part of themselves, not the whole thing, not on date 1 (or 2).

  • Plain Jane

    “Now, if there was a zero tolerance policy – women were encouraged to either carry concealed or go straight to the po-po, do you think college men would increase or decrease their attempts at “escalation” with a fellow female student?”

    Correction:
    “Now, if there was a zero tolerance policy – women were encouraged to either carry concealed or go straight to the po-po, do you think college men would increase or decrease their attempts at “escalation” with a fellow DRUNK female student?”

    The drunk part is important since we are discussing what the M-sphere refers to as the “grey area” of campus-based so-called “false allegations”, which they say is blurred by the use of alcohol.

    Knowing all of the above, and taking into our laws regarding the issue of consent in an alcohol infused situation, do you think college men would attempt sexual escalation or refrain from doing so, in order to protect their own behinds, both figuratively and literally?

  • Plain Jane

    @Zach,
    “I honestly think women telling men to “be themselves” was the entire cause of the PUA movement. It’s just about the worst advice ever if you’re looking to meet women, and shows how un-self-aware most women are of what they’re attracted to. No one in dating is ever “themselves” 100%. Everyone puts forward the best part of themselves, not the whole thing, not on date 1 (or 2).”

    Putting forth your best self is different from pretending to be who you are not or over-emphasizing a part of your personality that is not a major part, while downplaying the part that is.

    I cannot pretend to be interested in things I’m not for very long, even just for the sake of social niceties. I’d rather spend my weekends at home alone then in a group of people who do not share my interests and who I have to be pretend to be interested in what they are.

    The world being what it is, there are times that I do have to do this, but I don’t do it for more than say a half hour at most, then I’m outta there.

    Part of the reason working in a corporate office is not for me. They are not satisfied that you just show up to do your job 40 hours a week, they want you to socialize with co-workers, attend office parties, etc. They even rate your job performance on that! What the heck?

    If Sassy comes off as all girly-girl in order to attract some dude, what’s he gonna do once they start dating regularly and her real personality comes out? Dump her?

    Therefore its better to actually be yourself so that people who are attracted to those traits can find you, and they won’t dump you once they get to know the real you, because they already know the real you and like you for it!

  • (Or a crazy lab accident.) I like this idea.
    Have you been to TVTropes? It’s an absolute black hole for your time, but it has so many pages on types of villains, schemes, things that make them snap… Try it when you have a few extra hours and/or extreme self-control.

    Once upon a time TVtropes was my HUS, meaning I spent most of the time reading tropes and talking to other posters. I consult it once in a while now but I think I know by heart every type of villain I could use. I really don’t like the whole lab accident it reads antiscience which is cliche and not something I support personally.

  • Ted D

    Lokland – “I understand this feeling exactly. I don’t really care about the enemy bit so much. Enemies are easy and I’ve accumulated enough of to be used to it.

    I do fear betrayal.”

    Yes I agree. It is the betrayal that worries me the most. My ex-wife is not my enemy to this very day, but she did betray me. After it was all said and done, I forgave her for that, but it did not rid me of the scars.

  • Sai

    @Passer_By
    …er…
    This probably qualifies as one of those after-school special “never go by looks alone” moments.
    Well, we still have Brosnan.

    @Anacaona
    “I really don’t like the whole lab accident it reads antiscience which is cliche and not something I support personally.”
    I didn’t think of it that way. I usually took it for granted that out of several brainiacs, one snapped and then others would use their science skills to help save the day.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    Eh, he may be a psychopath, but not because of that. His view probably represented the majority view as recently as 100 years ago or even less. Unless everyone then was a psychopath, then I don’t think that makes him one.

    • @Passer By

      And as Barbara Walters took pains to point out, his wife of 31 years had no complaints.

  • Deli

    2 Sai
    I was born in 1985 – so technically I lived in USSR for the first 6 years of my life 🙂 (until 1991 when it was dissolved. There was a failed USSR-restoration coup in 1993, that I actually remember … because instead of the usual cartoons all channels were showing “the Swan Lake” on loop 🙂 Ah, child’s memories) – so most of it I know from my parents, my parents’ friends and of course literature.

    After the fall of USSR everybody and their dog started writing memoirs about how it was back than and now you can get opinions of every kind: it was heaven, it was hell, it was the orwellian society, it was the greatest experiment mankind ever experienced – you pick.

  • Deli, that’s interesting. When I was a kid I watched the Swan Lake on TV, too. But I was living in China. I was still in China when USSR fell, and the mood was sort of… well, they didn’t talk about it much.

  • Zach

    @Susan/PlainJane

    The part of me that flirts, socializes, etc, is certainly a real enough me. You’d see it plenty if you just saw me with my guy friends. What I’m saying is the part I’m terrified to ever let out is the one where I sit on the couch with my roommate and we debate Dodd-Frank for an hour, or talk about the deeper meaning of the last episode of Boardwalk Empire. Women gobble part A up, part B not so much. No man every picked up a girl by talking to her about how Walter White’s egomania was driven more by his temporary defeat of cancer than by his failure with Gray Matter. The only time that ever works (and it’s rare) is in a group of people who all know each other/are getting introduced to each other, and the topics veer away from small talk. And so if you rely on that, your potential circle of mates is only your friends or friends of friends. That gets pretty limiting.

    For example, I’m currently seeing/FWB a girl whose previous bfs (and I know this through mutual friends) were not at all alpha, and were mostly nerdy. However, she eats up the alpha side of me every bit as much as any other girl. The number of times I’ve heard “you’re such a jerk! haha” from her along with a punch on the arm is beyond counting. However, I can still talk with her about other things. Now before you ask why I’m not dating her, it’s because I’m not quite attracted to her enough. She’s cute, and plenty of my friends think she’s quite pretty, but she’s just not my type. Doesn’t do it for me consistently. (I’ve had one friend who repeatedly tells me she’s far too good of a person for me haha). The problem is that having been burned before, as Jason has also said, when introducing deeper aspects of your personality into dating (the girl will lose attraction), it’s very, very difficult anymore to trust that a girl won’t run away if I do. So to be on the safe side, I just never let it slip.

    It’s like this: what do you think would get a girl more interested in meeting you?

    “Wow, nice Breaking Bad t-shirt. You must really be into bald guys.”

    or

    “I think the turning point in Walter’s mindset occurred when he let Jesse’s girlfriend die. It wasn’t the act of hurting someone, but it was just far enough over the boundary to start him on his long slide into the abyss.”

    • @Zach

      It’s like this: what do you think would get a girl more interested in meeting you?

      “Wow, nice Breaking Bad t-shirt. You must really be into bald guys.”

      or

      “I think the turning point in Walter’s mindset occurred when he let Jesse’s girlfriend die. It wasn’t the act of hurting someone, but it was just far enough over the boundary to start him on his long slide into the abyss.”

      Is that a trick question? Shallow slut digs the first.

      The second would make me swoon. Funny enough, in the last few days I’ve discussed the Breaking Bad season finale with a group of young women, and one of the things we discussed was Jane’s death. Vince Gilligan talked about three ways they wrote that scene. In the first, Walter injected Jane with more heroin to kill her. Too aggressive. In the second, Walter turned her on her back to increase the likelihood of choking on vomit. Still too aggressive, not conflicted enough. In the third, he watches her choke and doesn’t help. We feel more empathy for Walter this way. You would have enjoyed the convo, I am sure, and the women would have found you very attractive.

      I’m not telling you to change your behavior. I’m just hearing you say it’s not working so well. In which case you might want to shift your strategy. But I have no investment in what strategy you choose.

  • Trav: “You seem a bit unbalanced.”

    PJ is a radfem troll, who has previously stated here that false rape accusations are a perfectly acceptable strategy in the female toolbox. Actually endorsing overt killing wasn’t too far behind. The mind of a psychopath, indeed.

  • Zach

    To finish up, how casual sex led to this:

    I used to view getting laid as the be-all and end-all. It was the first, and sometimes only goal. So through years of casual sex (and occasional booty calls), I saw that all my success here came through being my charming, social, witty self. Not from my intellectual, thoughtful, contemplative side. So through the success of that social side, and the failure of the other side, I was conditioned to never, ever let side B slip out with a girl I was interested in. And now that I’ve tired of casual sex, I barely know how to use that other side in talking with women. I’m programmed to be shallow, funny, clever, and charming. And to be completely honest, a lot of it is womens’ fault. If, by and large, so many of them didn’t ruthlessly shoot down any guy who wasn’t constantly on his game with them, it wouldn’t have conditioned me to be so much like this. Game evolved as a response to what women wanted, not to what men wanted. So, women by and large are very responsible for creating the monsters they wished for.

    • @Zach

      I would like to remind you that your technique was perfected in college among the “elite” 10% of promiscuous women. It sounds like you still socialize with that crowd, and to be frank, what you describe is indeed a bit psychopathic. Not even the beta trait of intelligence is allowed to be displayed. That’s wacked.

      I think this might be a good time to answer the question you asked at your senior dinner – “Who the hell are these people?”

  • Zach

    Not all I want to say on this, but enough for tonight. To be continued.

  • Plain Jane

    “Sexual assault IS a crime that is investigated to the full extent of the law. These committees are in ADDITION to the penalties that can result from criminal prosecution. ”

    Travis, actually, if you read the website I linked to that investigates this kind of stuff, you will see that no, it is no in addition to but rather in place of. Campuses across the country are implementing this and discouraging alleged victims from going to the police and legal authorities and actively pressuring the into dealing with is solely internally through the campus avenues. This is so the schools can save face.

    In order for college men to save face, it would be wise for them to avoid drunk women, and certainly under no circumstances escalate sexually with them.

    You lose nothing by not having sex with a drunk person, but you can potentially lose everything by doing so.

    Guys, the call is your’s.

  • Escoffier

    Zach,

    Haha, I get to talk to my wife about Plato or Austen or Churchill or Lincoln or Scorcese whenever I want.

    OK, that’s me being a dick, goodnight.

  • Plain Jane

    Zach, I get that we behave differently in public than we do in private. I’m not farting, burping or scratching my ass/crotch in public like I do alone at home. I’m also not going out in public in 3 day worn pajamas that I never take off when I’m on my period and taking it easy during my moon, eating whatever I want in the messy manner I want, stains be damned.

    However, talking about stuff I’m not really interested in is where I draw the line. I will talk about stuff that interests me and yes those interests have turned off a few men. Good. I got to know that there’s no way I could date them if they didn’t share my interests.

    I also won’t act all giggly and fake little girly (childish) just to appear more feminine.

    I will however conduct myself in a bathed, scrubbed, decent and cultured manner. That should be enough.

  • Mike M.

    @Susan (at 148)
    We’re six degrees of separation from just about ANYONE living in the last 50 years. Often much less.

    • We’re six degrees of separation from just about ANYONE living in the last 50 years. Often much less.

      I guess the same math is at work when we hear that President Obama is a distant cousin of George Washington. 🙂

  • Mike M.

    And with regard to James Bond, it;s worth remembering that the film depiction was changed every time they changed actors. And none of them quite fits the character Ian Fleming created. Fleming’s character was hard-edged, but was far more dumped than the dumper.

  • Plain Jane

    “Another request for femininity. Girls, are you listening?”

    “I’ll try… but it’s hard to make me cry unless it involves onions or Oscar Schindler. I wish they put this stuff into bottles (or a book) or something.”

    See, this right here is what is wrong. Sai, why would you want to fake a personality that isn’t your’s? You are not easily moved to tears, so what? That doesn’t mean you don’t feel.

    Sometimes people who are easily moved to public tears are nothing more than emotional vomitters who don’t really feel all that deeply.

  • @SW

    I have some suggestions as to where these psychopaths may be found on campus.

    Would these guys qualify?

    http://gma.yahoo.com/boston-university-ice-hockey-team-slammed-sexual-entitlement-160942199–abc-news-topstories.html

    Careful, they’re right in your own backyard…

    • @Megaman

      You scooped me, I’m going to write about those Terrible Terriers today.

  • INTJ

    @ Megaman

    From that article:

    But the task force found that the team’s “elevated social status” on campus led to “frequent sexual encounters with women absent an emotional relationship or ongoing commitment.”

    Whoulda thought that a bunch of athletes would have casual sex…

  • INTJ

    lol one of the comments:

    From now on BU hockey players will always escort the lady home and send her flowers the next day. A call back in three days will also be required along with a discussion of its me not you as to why there will not be further calls.

  • Esau

    Susan at 220: When I was 11 my father sat me down for a “talk.” He said, “It’s time you knew about the Federal Reserve.”

    LOL, priceless! (no pun intended) But, when did you learn about the Trilateral Commission?

    • @Esau

      I recall being bored out of my mind, and whining that I wanted to go. My father said “You can go when you have a rudimentary sense of the money supply.”

      Now do you believe me that I was raised to follow in my father’s footsteps rather than my mother’s?

  • Iggles

    @ Jackie:

    Later, she said she knew– she just *knew*– that when the guy had been getting all turned-on by talking about the bear’s mutilation of that poor girl, it was no bear. Bundy was talking about *himself*.

    Holy crap!

    And now, I’ve just scared myself! 🙁

    You scared me too, Jackie!! I’ve never been so creeped out by reading a comment online.

    I’m so glad your mentor and her friend got away from him safely!!!

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    In other words, you dumb yourself down. Which means you are attracting women who are attracted to dumb men or men who can at least act dumb.

    Best comment by Plain Jane ever.

    😆

    100% co-sign!!

  • I didn’t think of it that way. I usually took it for granted that out of several brainiacs, one snapped and then others would use their science skills to help save the day.

    If you check TV tropes Science is bad http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceIsBad is a lot longer than Science Hero, they don’t even have a Science is good trope! http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceHero. I’ll be damned if I add to the trope more dirt. Sorry for he rant this is one of those tropes that piss me off as I call them.

  • Plain Jane

    Thinking about it, I think the only way for a relationship to succeed is if both partners are outcome independent.

    Being dependent on outcome makes both partners insecure and controlling and unable to just sit back, relax and enjoy being in a relationship with another human being.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “So, women by and large are very responsible for creating the monsters they wished for.”

    Yes they are.

    But you were complicit and riding along the whole way, just like the slutty girl who wakes up one day and realizes she doesn’t want that anymore.

    Not trying to bash ya, but you can’t just blame other people.

  • Plain Jane

    “Not trying to bash ya, but you can’t just blame other people.”

    Bingo. Copy and paste this to every sphere-that-shant-be-named blog.

  • J

    Thinking about it, I think the only way for a relationship to succeed is if both partners are outcome independent. Being dependent on outcome makes both partners insecure and controlling and unable to just sit back, relax and enjoy being in a relationship with another human being.

    It’s hard to be completely outcome independent if you care about someone, but I think a relationship thrives when both parties love each other but don’t necessarily need each other. I’d do OK with my husband and he’d do OK without me, but our lives are just so much better together.

  • Plain Jane

    “It’s hard to be completely outcome independent if you care about someone, but I think a relationship thrives when both parties love each other but don’t necessarily need each other.”

    Yeah. And when you actually have kids together of course there should be outcome dependency for their sake. I was thinking more in terms of unmarried young people dating each other. Suspicion, jealousy and control are all aspects of outcome dependence and are turn offs that can nip a blossoming relationship in the bud.

  • Samael

    @ Plain Jane

    “Being dependent on outcome makes both partners insecure and controlling and unable to just sit back, relax and enjoy being in a relationship with another human being.”

    I would think they would be more likely to not sweat small disagreements and work harder at staying together because it’s they both desire.

  • Plain Jane

    Make a room for love and it always comes.
    Make a nest for love and it always settles.
    Make a home for the beloved and he will find his way there.

    ~ Marianne Williamson ~

  • Höllenhund

    “Legally one cannot give consent when drunk, so legally that would be rape.”

    That definition of rape is absolute nonsense and an insult to human intelligence. According to this, it’s possible for two people to simultaneously rape each other. As long as we accept this definition, we’ll remain either idiots or cowards. Nobody should accept that. In fact, one should reject feminist dogma in its entirety.

  • Höllenhund

    Moreover, the idea that young men and women should have social permission to get drunk in each other’s company is a relatively new one and frankly idiotic.

  • szopen

    @anacaona, INTJ
    “…I have no idea what the OP wanted to prove with it to be honest.”
    Nothing. It’s just a trick my daughter brought this day and it worked on me (despite I hesitated, thought a bit and then I said “milk” anyway). I was just wondering whether it would work also on anglosphere. It’s strange how easily you can twist people’s minds, isn’t it.

  • Nothing. It’s just a trick my daughter brought this day and it worked on me (despite I hesitated, thought a bit and then I said “milk” anyway). I was just wondering whether it would work also on anglosphere. It’s strange how easily you can twist people’s minds, isn’t it.

    Oh yeah the human brain has a lot of blind spots, this mental tricks are fun if you know when to play it. Did you daughter laughed at you, BTW?

  • szopen

    @anacaona
    Yes she did. I have raised a viper on my womb…

  • VD

    Completely clueless. All psychopaths have been abused. You might want to try serial killer FBI profilers like John Douglas, or psychiatrists like James Gilligan’s 35 years of research on murderers. All agree on the humiliation and shame covered up by grandiosity and a lack of conscience. Ignorance is bliss, eh, VD? Another Lost Boy of the Manosphere. There are a lot of you.

    You’re not merely a poser, Bob, and you’re not merely ignorant. You’re downright stupid. You claim “All agree on the humiliation and shame covered up by grandiosity and a lack of conscience”. And yet, what do we find in the very DEFINITION of psychopathy, the Psychopathy Checklist, Revised (PCL-R) created by psychologist Robert D. Hare?

    Glibness/superficial charm
    Grandiose sense of self-worth…
    Lack of remorse or guilt
    Emotionally shallow
    Callous/lack of empathy

    And Hare based his checklist on Cleckley’s list of attributes from Mask of Sanity. What do we see at #6?

    Lack of remorse and shame

    You’re an idiot and a fraud, Bob. You observably don’t even know what psychopathy is and yet you are trying to claim it is caused by something which the very people who created the concept have stated is entirely absent in psychopaths. And all psychopaths are not abused. In a 2008 study, 1.2 percent of the population scored at the “potential psychopath” level; that is equivalent to 4 million people in the USA. It should be obvious that not all of them were abused.

  • VD

    I hear what you’re saying, but I feel extremely uncomfortable with the idea of sanctioning gun use for 18 year olds. As you point out, there is already rampant drug use and binge drinking. I feel certain that homicide rate would skyrocket if students carried guns as a matter of course.

    I completely understand why you are uncomfortable, but I would call your attention to the actual consequences of the 30+ states that have permitted carry laws in the last 20 years. In precisely the same manner you are certain the homicide rate on campus would skyrocket, the newspaper editorialists have predicted bloodbaths in the streets in every single state where carry laws were being debated. And they were completely wrong every single time. As it happens, the first political article I ever published was in the Minneapolis Star Tribune, back in 1991 or so, on this very subject.

    First I quoted all the predictions of bloody consequences if a carry law was passed in Minnesota. Then I quoted all the identical predictions if a carry law was passed in Florida. And then I cited the Florida statistics which showed the precise opposite of those predictions; gun violence has continued to decline there despite the issuing of what is now up to 2,031,106 licenses over the years . Since I know you like statistical studies, here is one from Texas covering 1996 to 2000, right after it enacted its current carry laws:

    The average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 7.7 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder, rape, robbery, and assault than the average male CHL holder. Looking at violent crimes individually, the average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 1.7 times (rate of 7.4 v. 4.3) more likely to be arrested for murder; 87 times (rate of 24 v. 0.3) more likely to be arrested for rape; 53 times (rate of 44 v. 0.8) more likely to be arrested for robbery; 3.4 times (rate of 202 v. 60) more likely to be arrested for aggravated assault; and 10 times (rate of 892 v. 87) more likely to be arrested for other assaults than the average male CHL holder. No male Texas CHL holder was arrested for negligent manslaughter during the 1996 through 2000 period.

    The reason for the distinction between the violence expected and the reduced violence observed is logical. The outlaws and predators are already armed and carrying. They are no more concerned with gun laws than they are with drug laws. All that campus gun bans do is ensure that the law-abiding good guys are unarmed and unable to stop them. It may help to remember that 99 times out of 100, it’s not necessary to actually fire a gun in order to stop trouble, much less shoot anyone. All police officers unholster their guns from time to time in the process of making an arrest or checking out a location, but most of them will go their entire careers without ever firing at anyone.

    Also, you’d be amazed at how hard it is for even trained shooters to hit anything from more than three feet away. It’s not like the movies, where the guy with the smallest pistol is dropping bad guys armed with sniper rifles and bazookas with single shots from fifty feet away. A few years back, in the Minneapolis skyway, police fired 41 shots at a bank robber. They didn’t hit him once. I also knew a fairly well-known writer who got into a gunfight in the dark with a home intruder. He emptied most of a 15-round magazine, the intruder emptied his 6-shot revolver. Even though they were in the same room, neither one of them hit the other.

    • @VD

      Do you have any concerns about putting loaded guns in the hands of very drunk young men? Imagine all those drunken fistfights with firearms in the mix.

  • Ted D

    Notice how in Plain Jane’s world the drunk women shares NONE of the responsibility for ending up having sex. She CHOSE to go somewhere and get drunk beyond her ability for rational thought, but it is the guy’s fault she willingly (albeit drunkenly) had sex with him. What about the fact that he is probably drunk as well? I do indeed have erection problems with I’m piss drunk, but there is plenty of room between sober and piss drunk where my “tool” works just fine, but my brain isn’t nearly at full capacity. So, does that mean she raped me?! If so, then I say our mutual rapes cancel each other out, and we were both dumb asses for being in that situation in the first place.

    But lets face it, her script is EXACTLY what the socialist/feminists/anyists want you to think: women ARE NOT responsible for their own choices and actions, and you can’t make them TAKE responsibility!

  • JustYX

    regarding the views of The Banana in PyJamas
    (http://www.abc.net.au/abcforkids/sites/bananasinpyjamas/)

    Anybody believing her BS about rape and FRAs in college should try the Community Of The Wrongly Accused (successor to False Rape Society)
    http://www.cotwa.info/

    cotwa is not an mra site, it is about justice

    for example

    Read our three part series on the University of Montana’s mandatory sexual assault video series
    Part I: The University of Montana deprives men of their right to a fair hearing in sex cases

    Part II: The University of Montana says sex after ‘guilt tripping’ is assault, and why that is wrong

    Part III: The University of Montana’s mandatory video series teaches that rape is normalized

  • Zach

    @Definite Beta 272

    Oh, absolutely I played along completely. I loved it. I’m as much to blame as anyone else. An appropriate analogy: I spent the last 5-6 years playing football, getting good at throwing, catching, etc (my friend the other day called me the Roger Federer of text message tennis). Now I’ve become increasingly aware that long-term football play can cause severe brain injury. I want to stop playing football, but after 6 years, it’s all I know how to do. And to continue the analogy, all of the best athletes are still playing football, and I don’t want to play tennis against 2nd-rate competition. What am I to do?

    @Susan 271

    Ah, but for that to come into play, I’d have to be in a “book group” that watched Breaking Bad. As I mentioned in my example earlier, that sort of thing can work, but it only works in a controlled environment where everyone is making conversation. Those are few and far between, and not easy to come by. So by relying exclusively on those sorts of environments, I’d be limiting myself to very, very few opportunities to meet a new woman. That’s the issue.

    @272

    The issue is that it’s not just that “elite” 10% that witty, teasing, charismatic game works on. It’s a far, far larger proportion of women. I knew plenty of girls in college who were extremely intelligent, who could write dissertations on Jane Austen, who often were the most insightful contributors in class, but when they were around guys, they ate up alpha game like skittles. And that held true very, very broadly. Also, I think you’re neglecting attractiveness here. That “elite” 10%, or let’s say the sorority 35% at my school, was by FAR and away the 35% most attractive girls around. So much so that a girl who was hot and was not in a sorority was like a unicorn.

    So bottom line, I think what I’m looking for is pretty rare. And in summary, my reaction to Antitype’s comment was equally about how much I’d come to hate casual sex as how much I hated having to be on “game” all the time. I find it hollow and unfulfilling. I want so badly to have a girl where I can let my guard down, where it’s about more than just sex. However, I’m not going to lower my standards in other areas (looks) to achieve that. I’m still a guy, and looks still mean a ton to me. These girls are out there (girl I’m currently seeing being one), it’s just very, very hard to find them. I’m looking for help on doing so.

    And just a final question on the girls you refer to: how many of them go to bars pretty regularly? I bet it’s a pretty high percentage. That’s just where the girls are. As I mentioned before, in this day and age looking for single girls and avoiding the bar scene is like hunting for lions but adamantly refusing to go to Africa.

    • @Zach

      And just a final question on the girls you refer to: how many of them go to bars pretty regularly? I bet it’s a pretty high percentage. That’s just where the girls are. As I mentioned before, in this day and age looking for single girls and avoiding the bar scene is like hunting for lions but adamantly refusing to go to Africa.

      The girls I had this convo with do go to bars. Also, they were all in sororities in college. My point is, they actually would be much more attracted to a guy who tossed out some intelligent remark about Breaking Bad than a guy who negged them re bald guys. These women are smart, definitely could write about Austen, and appreciate alpha traits in men. But their need for dominance is not over the top – they don’t LJBF guys they were initially attracted to for showing their true personalities. In fact, one of them recently had a guy over for a glass of wine before a date, and he expressed interest in a book she had on her shelf (Black Swan, she’s in finance). He borrowed it, then they discussed it at some length.

      Really great catches are out there, though they’re not common. Are you a great catch? (Don’t answer that.)

  • Ted D

    Zach – ” I want so badly to have a girl where I can let my guard down, where it’s about more than just sex. However, I’m not going to lower my standards in other areas (looks) to achieve that. I’m still a guy, and looks still mean a ton to me. These girls are out there (girl I’m currently seeing being one), it’s just very, very hard to find them. I’m looking for help on doing so.”

    That right there is the crux of the problem. It is damn hard to find a woman with above standard looks AND something big going on upstairs. I’m not trying to imply that all pretty women are stupid, but lets face it, in our society pretty women are not expected to be smart and few actually step to the challenge. It is human nature to be lazy, and if I was never required to “use my brain” I might be just as clueless as your average Jerry Springer audience member.

    I honestly don’t remember what age bracket you are in, but I think it is late 20’s. That is a tough time, especially if you are fresh out of college and/or most of your circle is fresh out or still in. It also depends greatly on where you are. I’m not at all experienced with casual stuff, but I’ve spent my entire life in LTRs since I was 16, and I will tell you this: I have never had a relationship with a woman I met at a bar. I’ve dated many, but they never make it past date 2, or maybe 3 before I realize that the lights are on, but no one is home. Once I get comfortable enough to start talking about the things that actually interest me, they would “glaze over” and mostly check out of the conversation.

    Now, every single one of my successful relationships (ones that lasted for years) were started far from any bar or club. For the most part, they were all introduced to me by mutual friends/family in mixed settings. My ex-wife first saw me at a band practice when she came to pickup her brother (who was our new bass player) because his car broke down. My current wife was introduced to me by the wife of a guy I met at work and became friends with. I can go on, but you get the idea.

    I don’t know a single person that is with someone they met at a club or bar, although I know plenty that have dated such women. I won’t say that all women going to clubs are vapid and shallow, but the truth is, the ones that can usually be picked up at such venues tend to run that way. And if you were honest with yourself, I would be willing to bet that you already know this. The bar scene is a meat market. You may find a very nice cut of meat on the cheap there, but chances are what you’ll find is substandard goods being sold cheap. You want quality, not quantity. So, stop shopping where the goal is to sell as much as possible. I can’t tell you where the quality places are necessarily, but it isn’t anywhere with loud Unnn Tiss Unnn Tiss is blaring over loudspeakers.

  • @VD

    “You’re an idiot and a fraud, Bob”

    Your feelings of humiliation, envy and insecurity are very clear for everyone to see.

  • Escoffier

    Bob, no dog in your fight, but I have done a little reading on this, and VD’s take is consistent with I have read. Yours, put simply, is not.

  • INTJ

    @ szopen

    Nothing. It’s just a trick my daughter brought this day and it worked on me (despite I hesitated, thought a bit and then I said “milk” anyway). I was just wondering whether it would work also on anglosphere. It’s strange how easily you can twist people’s minds, isn’t it.

    It’s a cool trick. I walked straight into it.

  • JutR

    This is from Susan’s neck of the woods.

    http://gma.yahoo.com/boston-university-ice-hockey-team-slammed-sexual-entitlement-160942199–abc-news-topstories.html

    “But the task force found that the team’s “elevated social status” on campus led to “frequent sexual encounters with women absent an emotional relationship or ongoing commitment.””

  • INTJ

    @ Zach

    And just a final question on the girls you refer to: how many of them go to bars pretty regularly? I bet it’s a pretty high percentage. That’s just where the girls are. As I mentioned before, in this day and age looking for single girls and avoiding the bar scene is like hunting for lions but adamantly refusing to go to Africa.

    I was going to make a snide remark about lions in India, but then I remembered that they’re barely hanging on from going extinct, which kinda demonstrates your point…

  • Zach

    @Ted D

    FYI, I’m 25.

    I’ve heard all the knocks on bars, but I think you’d find that if you talked to people younger than your generation, it’d be quite a different story. The hookup culture (which is definitely what we’re in) has made bars the center of romantic life. And I don’t just mean hookup life. I know dozens upon dozens of girls who want relationships (I mean REALLY want them), and they go to bars to find the guys for them. If you don’t have somewhere to go looking for them, you’re really just relying on luck, and that’s not a plan. Being introduced to a friend of a friend, or a coworker’s cousin, or something like that, is a total crapshoot. Yeah, it can happen, and it has happened to me a few times, but it’s pure luck and severely limits the potential pool of women (those within 2-3 degrees of separation).

    For instance, over the summer I was with a friend I’ve known for 20 years who now lives up in Boston and is at law school there. I was talking with his girlfriend, saying I might come up to Boston to visit. She immediately whipped our her phone and started aggressively pimping out her friends to me via pictures. “What’s your type? Brunnette, blonde? Which one do you like?” Included in these pictures were some VERY attractive girls. After this pretty surprising exchange, I asked my friend about it later. His response: “oh yeah, all of her friends are desperate to find a guy.” Me: “Just to fuck? Or to date?” Him: “Oh no, they really want boyfriends”. Me: “Wow, I’m really surprised they’re that desperate, because some of them are smoking hot. Let me guess: they go to the bar, stand in a circle of 7 or 8 girls, and then are shocked when no guy approaches them.” Him: “Pretty much.”

    Moral of story: these girls, who are highly educated, intelligent future lawyers, and who badly want relationships, are looking for them in bars. It’s what single girls do these days. As Susan has mentioned often, most girls don’t know any other way to do it. So for my purposes, bars are a pretty good route. The issue is sorting the wheat from the chaff. And you’re right, there’s a lot of chaff. I’ve actually walked out on a couple dates after 45 mins because the girl was too stupid to talk to. However, in NYC, by and large the girls are pretty intelligent. For me though, intelligence isn’t enough per se. My ex was intelligent. I need a girl who has intellectual curiosity. That is distinctly harder to find.

    FYI, of my friends who are in LTRs, and who didn’t meet their GFs in college, at least half met their GF/BFs in bars. Also, online dating relationships have become more common. I’ve given it a shot, and we’ll see how that pans out. However, it takes away some of my distinct advantages (physical presence, height, and I don’t photograph well), so we’ll see.

    • @Zach

      Moral of story: these girls, who are highly educated, intelligent future lawyers, and who badly want relationships, are looking for them in bars. It’s what single girls do these days. As Susan has mentioned often, most girls don’t know any other way to do it. So for my purposes, bars are a pretty good route. The issue is sorting the wheat from the chaff.

      Agreed, the wheat is much more likely to stand in that impenetrable circle and not approach you first. That is definitely true of the women I know, and as you can imagine, they only get approached by guys with ultra tight Game. They’re cynical about those guys, assuming they’re looking for the P&D, and at most they will give out their number and wait to see if the guy acts legit.

      I shared a story here recently of a young woman doing this – she was leaving and a guy who had approached just ten minutes earlier politely asked for her number and said he would love to take her out. She thought he was very handsome, seemed nice, etc. At 2 am that same night he told her to come over to his apartment. When she responded “Are you serious right now?” he said, “Fuck you, you think you’re hot shit and you expect to be wined and dined? Get over here.” It didn’t work, and he actually called during the week to set up a legit date saying he’d been drunk before. That didn’t work either – in fact, the only reason she answered was because she didn’t know who was calling.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Won’t answer that last question haha. I’d say it depends on which of my friends you asked. Weirdly, all of my mom’s friends think I’m a catch, and have tried to set me up on several occasions with their daughters/nieces etc. It weirds me out a little bit.

    All this still makes me wonder if I gave up too easily on my ex. A couple weeks before we broke up, I’d talked to her (not as much with her) about “Coming Apart”, which I’d just finished. She asked to borrow it so she could read it, saying she might be interested. At the time, I appreciated the effort, but I thought it was too little too late. Maybe I should have given it some time. Just too many of my conversations on these topics had been more monologues than dialogues. She still has the book btw.

    • @Zach

      I think you made the right call on the ex, because you didn’t fall in love after enough time had passed. You were restless. I wouldn’t second guess that decision.

      Don’t be weirded out by the moms. As the mother of a 23 year old, every time I meet a great guy in his 20s, my SIL radar goes off. Not that my daughter would ever allow me to set her up, I wouldn’t dream of it. Still, I know one extremely attractive and happily married couple that were set up by a rabbi. They both showed up expecting to suffer through a terrible date, and it was love at first sight. Blind dates strike gold sometimes. If you can get your mom to vet the girls for looks (and you trust her judgment), it might be worth a shot.

  • Ted D

    Zach – “I’ve heard all the knocks on bars, but I think you’d find that if you talked to people younger than your generation, it’d be quite a different story. The hookup culture (which is definitely what we’re in) has made bars the center of romantic life. And I don’t just mean hookup life.”

    This may be very true, and I’ll find out soon as my oldest just turned 18. If so, it is pretty damn sad that bars and clubs are the highlight of ones social life. I never liked them even when I went regularly. I simply went with my friends and used the experience to people watch, which is one of my favorite hobbies provided no one is bothering me by trying to be social. :p

    “Also, online dating relationships have become more common. I’ve given it a shot, and we’ll see how that pans out. However, it takes away some of my distinct advantages (physical presence, height, and I don’t photograph well), so we’ll see.”

    I can see this, and I even attempted online dating before I met my current wife. But, I had very little luck. Of course, I was fishing in a different pond in terms of age bracket, but the truth is most of the women I chatted up online just struck me as desperate, flaky, or gold digging. Again, might have been the pond I was fishing in, or honestly it could be that my profile sucked ass. I found the ‘sphere well after my attempts at match.com, and if I were to do it again my profile would be vastly different.

    But I agree with you in terms of how online dating adds a lot of distance and separation from the process. But, the flip side is: you can cover a lot of ground by communicating by electronic means only up front. I only talked to my wife a handful of times in person before we started dating, but I got her number early on and we chatted each other up by text a great deal. The relationship moved forward quickly once we decided it would happen because we had already discussed most of the stuff required to get past that hurdle.

    Wish I had better advice for you, but I’m still rather clueless myself. And, I guess I must finally accept that fact that I am indeed too old to understand what you and other 20-something guys are going through. It is a bitter pill, but not nearly as bad as the Red one I choked on for over a year.

  • INTJ

    @ Zach

    This is why I’m staying away from the urban cities (in my case SF and Berkeley). Sure, there is an abundance of young single women there. But a large portion of them are shallow (all the SWPL/Girls types that seek to “find themselves” and all that crap), and the ones that aren’t shallow still seek relationships in bars, nightclubs, etc., which simply are not my cup of tea.

  • @Escoffier, VD

    “Bob, no dog in your fight, but I have done a little reading on this, and VD’s take is consistent with I have read. Yours, put simply, is not.”

    You might want to look at people who have practical experience with psychopaths and narcissists, such as the psychiatrist James Gilligan (35 years) and FBI profiler John Douglas.

    In nearly every case, these people were horribly abused as children. They cover up their feelings of humiliation and shame with grandiosity. They are incurable.

    One of the biggest problems with the Lost Boys of the Manosphere is that many of the bloggers feel they have been humiliated and abused by women so they cover it up with thinking they’re Alphas or PUAs. It’s all about trying to pretend they don’t care what women think about them, when the reality is that they are excruciatingly sensitive to what they think.

    Feminism is based on women’s envy of men. Much of the Manosphere is based on men’s envy of women (a woman friend of mine referred to the Manosphere as “feminism’s bastard son”).

    The biggest problem with a lot of the well-known Manosphere bloggers is they feel they’re wimps, which they cover up with babbling about how they are Alphas or PUAs,

    People like Vox Day and Roissy are the Manosphere’s version of Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem. Men who follow their prescriptions are looking for trouble, just as so many women ruined their lives by following feminists who never followed them own belief.

    Like Friedan and Steinem, narcissists like Day and Roissy and people like them will follow them into oblivion.

  • VD

    I don’t know a single person that is with someone they met at a club or bar

    (raises hand)

    Your feelings of humiliation, envy and insecurity are very clear for everyone to see.

    I repeat: you’re not only ignorant, you’re stupid, Bob. Do you think I’m envious of you, Bob?

    The biggest problem with a lot of the well-known Manosphere bloggers is they feel they’re wimps, which they cover up with babbling about how they are Alphas or PUAs. People like Vox Day and Roissy are the Manosphere’s version of Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem. Men who follow their prescriptions are looking for trouble, just as so many women ruined their lives by following feminists who never followed them own belief.

    And yet again, you demonstrate that you’re an idiot and an ignoramus, Bob. You clearly know virtually nothing about Roissy or me. Just as you know nothing about Hare, Cleckley, or psychopathy itself. And the citation of an FBI profiler as some sort of expert on the subject is amusing, as experts in criminal psychology are now questioning its scientific validity. Furthermore, John Douglas is a fame whore whose entire experience is with serial killers and other violent sex offenders, so his opinion about the personal history of the overwhelming majority of psychopaths who haven’t committed any violent crime is totally irrelevant… assuming you have even understood his claims correctly, which I tend to doubt.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I think you might want to break up the VD – Bob Wallace fight, or at least have them tone down the personal insults a bit. They sound like school children fighting on the playground. 😉

  • VD

    For me though, intelligence isn’t enough per se. My ex was intelligent. I need a girl who has intellectual curiosity. That is distinctly harder to find.

    I suspect you may be engaging in a category error here, Zach. I find that women just aren’t intellectually curious in the same way, or to the same degree, as men. My wife and I often have conversations that go well into the wee hours and she is much smarter than the average, but she’s never going to be an intellectual nor pretend that she is. If you look at the history of the great intellectuals, very, very few are women, mostly because a) women are designed for multitasking rather than focus, and b) women are solipsistic.

    Most intellectual matters don’t revolve around individuals and for the most part, a woman’s interest in a subject is only going to run as deep as it relates to her in some way. So, their “intellectual” conversations tend to be conversational checkboxes and personal applications thereof. For example, a smart, well-educated woman is probably going to be interested in being able to say that she read Euthyphro and got the gist of it, she’s also likely to be interested in discussing how the dilemma relates to a situation in which she finds herself, but she’s not actually going to harbor much interest in the detailed discussion required to see how Socrates cheats when he constructs the second horn.

    Now, perhaps I’m wrong and you can find that rare unicorn. But you may find the observation to be of some utility. Consider it a hypothesis, test it out, and let us know if it holds up.

  • J

    What I’m saying is the part I’m terrified to ever let out is the one where I sit on the couch with my roommate and we debate Dodd-Frank for an hour, or talk about the deeper meaning of the last episode of Boardwalk Empire. Women gobble part A up, part B not so much.

    Yet, I’d bet that every marriage woman on this blog enjoys conversations like that, both with her husband and with others. OK, Dodd-Frank is a bit specialized, but women do work in finance. Somewhere there’s a woman who wants to talk about it. And loads of women watched Boardwalk Empire. If you can’t find a woman who can’t discuss Boardwalk Empire, where are you looking?

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Don’t be weirded out by the moms. As the mother of a 23 year old, every time I meet a great guy in his 20s, my SIL radar goes off. Not that my daughter would ever allow me to set her up, I wouldn’t dream of it. Still, I know one extremely attractive and happily married couple that were set up by a rabbi. They both showed up expecting to suffer through a terrible date, and it was love at first sight. Blind dates strike gold sometimes. If you can get your mom to vet the girls for looks (and you trust her judgment), it might be worth a shot.

    That would be a no and another no for me…

  • VD

    I think you might want to break up the VD – Bob Wallace fight, or at least have them tone down the personal insults a bit.

    I am curious, INTJ. What other word would you use to describe someone who demonstrably knows nothing about a subject than “ignoramus”? Or “fraud” for someone who pretends to knowledge that they clearly do not possess?

    Now, I can certainly read Douglas’s book and thereby demonstrate that Bob misunderstood Douglas’s claim, which I strongly suspect applies only to serial killers and violent offenders, not clinically diagnosed psychopaths, if that is necessary to prove my case. But I think his contention that psychopathy is based at its core on something both Hare and Cleckey claim psychopaths do not possess should be sufficient to demonstrate he has no idea what he is talking about. It is an appeal to authority, I admit, but in this particular case, the authority is literally definitive.

    And if this all sounds to you “like school children fighting on the playground”, I can only conclude that you must have attended a remarkably advanced school in your youth.

  • J

    “Wow, nice Breaking Bad t-shirt. You must really be into bald guys.”

    or

    “I think the turning point in Walter’s mindset occurred when he let Jesse’s girlfriend die. It wasn’t the act of hurting someone, but it was just far enough over the boundary to start him on his long slide into the abyss.”

    Obviously, Zach, the latter is not a pithy icebreaker, but I’d sneer at and walk away from the first line. It’s stupid and douchey. The second, dropped into a conversation at the appropriate moment, would impress me.

  • Zach

    @J

    Boardwalk Empire was just a random example of a quality television show. Selected at random.

    @VD

    Interesting hypothesis. I certainly know some women about whom that definitely holds true.

  • Escoffier

    I met my wife in a philosophy grad program 🙂

  • Ted D

    VD – “Most intellectual matters don’t revolve around individuals and for the most part, a woman’s interest in a subject is only going to run as deep as it relates to her in some way”

    Holy shit! How did I miss this? This would explain why so often when discussing such subjects as the SMP and it’s current issues, women seem to take it to a personal level every time. It is damn hard to have such a conversation without offending women, and it never occurred to me that for the most part they simply do not look beyond their own experiences. I’ve actually had conversations where my “stance” on the subject goes counter to my own personal behavior, and I don’t even consider it a problem or conflict of interest. In fact, one of my favorite activities used to be debating with people against the side I actually believed to be correct. Not only does it sharpen my skills, but it also helps me to more clearly define my stance on the issue to “argue” from the other side.

    On the bar and club comment: on second thought just ignore it. I often forget how antisocial I really am and realized that my distaste for club girls has much to do with how damn extroverted they tend to be.

  • VD

    Do you have any concerns about putting loaded guns in the hands of very drunk young men? Imagine all those drunken fistfights with firearms in the mix.

    I acknowledge the possibility of problems, but consider the probabilities to be very low. First, to obtain a legal carry permit, it is made very clear that you cannot drink and carry, and few who have gone through the trouble and expense of obtaining a carry permit are going to risk losing their permit over a few beers. Second, you can look to the US military as a model, since it puts fully automatic guns in the hands of very drunk young men every single day. I don’t see any reason students on campus, who are probably more intelligent on average than the young soldiers, should be more prone to shooting each other.

    Because women rightly fear all male violence, they don’t understand that men maintain fairly strict divisions between the acceptable levels of it. In all the drunken fistfights you’ve seen, how many involved someone kicking someone else in the head or taking out a knee? Probably none of them, even though there was nothing to prevent it. In the same way, even a drunk guy with a gun is almost never going to pull it out over mere fisticuffs.

    One of my Marine friends, a Force Recon guy, described how they got in drunken fights with the Navy every single time it was their last night on base. He hated it, but it was just what you did as part of the platoon. Every single guy involved in the brawl would have knives, often guns, and at least some lethal hand-to-hand training. And yet, no one ever got more than bloody noses and bruises from it.

  • Escoffier

    Vox, once you’ve concluded the guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, just move on. Not that I am holding myself up as an exemplar here or anything, but if you read my posts you’ll notice that I only ever respond to the people I think are worth talking to, a number which is probably smaller than 50% of the commenters.

    We all have areas of expertise about which we know a lot and, online, it will happen that we come accorss tenacious flat-earthers who cannot be talked out of anything. Not that Wallace is or is not that, I don’t know. I just know that you think you know a lot about something (and from what I have read you are right), he thinks he knows, you two disagree, and it’s going nowhere.

    I mean, if someone said to me “Aristotle was a moral relativist” or “creme anglais is made with Karo syrup” or “Los Angeles is north of San Francisco” I would just raise my eybrows in private and move on.

  • J

    @JYK

    Bananas in Pyjamas!!!!

    I believe we still have a stuffed B1 in a toy box somewhere in the basement. The boys loved that show. So did DH, who had his own version of the theme song: “Bananas in Pyjamas are coming to your house. Bananas in Pyjamas will throw you down the stairs. Bananas in Pyjamas are gonnna kill your dog…”

  • J

    I’ve heard all the knocks on bars, but I think you’d find that if you talked to people younger than your generation, it’d be quite a different story. The hookup culture (which is definitely what we’re in) has made bars the center of romantic life. And I don’t just mean hookup life.

    It wasn’t all that different 30 years ago. The sad thing is that once you leave school, there’s no other place to go to meet peers. That’s why I’m hoping against hope that my sons meet their future wives in college, where the pickings are better. I can’t imagine that the bar scene is any less dismal than it was 30 years ago.

  • Escoffier

    I think in my entire life I picked up a chick in a bar exactly once. All my GFs and everything else, down to pursuits of mine that went nowhere, started somewhere else.

  • VD

    Vox, once you’ve concluded the guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, just move on.

    (sobs) You don’t know me AT ALL! Clearly you were not there for the summer of the Great Japanese Naval Invasion debate. Longtime VP regulars still quiver in fear that someone will bring up the subject again.

  • J

    Still, I know one extremely attractive and happily married couple that were set up by a rabbi.

    I’m not surprised at this at all. I wish that more adults took an interest in setting young people up. There was recently a wedding in my social circle in which a young woman was set up with an older woman’s out of town nephew. Both young people were reluctant to get sucked into a long distance adult-made match, but they Skyped, visited and then decided to possibly marry. The girl moved to the boy’s town, they dated for a few months and then got married. There was no long engagement.

    Interestingly, there are a number of young women in my community who do network women my age to help find them guys. It’s an alternative to bars and online dating. The girls are usually bright, pretty girls as well. They’re just tired of messing around with the usual pattern of modern dating.

    • @J

      Interestingly, there are a number of young women in my community who do network women my age to help find them guys. It’s an alternative to bars and online dating. The girls are usually bright, pretty girls as well. They’re just tired of messing around with the usual pattern of modern dating.

      Wow, that is really interesting! Can you describe this in more detail? Such an idea might have promise on a widespread scale – yet another way we can return to the “old ways” to help people navigate the SMP. (This blog is an example of old ways – the middle aged maternal figure steering young women with the wisdom of experience.)

  • INTJ

    @ J

    It wasn’t all that different 30 years ago. The sad thing is that once you leave school, there’s no other place to go to meet peers. That’s why I’m hoping against hope that my sons meet their future wives in college, where the pickings are better. I can’t imagine that the bar scene is any less dismal than it was 30 years ago.

    Nah. Not happening. Unless they’re alpha jerks. Mike C and I have already expounded just how bad college is for the average guy.

  • As an introverted non-drinker I never frequented bars or clubs. I never had trouble getting into relationships.

    Zach is kind of looking for a super unicorn, a girl who’s really hot and feminine (8+), extroverted and likes bar hopping, not very hypergamous, loves vulnerability in a man, and is intellectually curious. I have never known any.

  • INTJ

    @ VD

    I am curious, INTJ. What other word would you use to describe someone who demonstrably knows nothing about a subject than “ignoramus”? Or “fraud” for someone who pretends to knowledge that they clearly do not possess?

    Now, I can certainly read Douglas’s book and thereby demonstrate that Bob misunderstood Douglas’s claim, which I strongly suspect applies only to serial killers and violent offenders, not clinically diagnosed psychopaths, if that is necessary to prove my case. But I think his contention that psychopathy is based at its core on something both Hare and Cleckey claim psychopaths do not possess should be sufficient to demonstrate he has no idea what he is talking about. It is an appeal to authority, I admit, but in this particular case, the authority is literally definitive.

    While I’m inclined to agree with your definition of sociopathy, I make no judgement as to who is correct. However, there is the fact that both of you have claimed that other is completely wrong about the subject. At least one of you is. No point in continuing to argue with a fool.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    Agreed, the wheat is much more likely to stand in that impenetrable circle and not approach you first. That is definitely true of the women I know, and as you can imagine, they only get approached by guys with ultra tight Game. They’re cynical about those guys, assuming they’re looking for the P&D, and at most they will give out their number and wait to see if the guy acts legit.

    The thing is though, when guys without tight game muster up the courage to approach them, they generally blow them out. These girls are seeking the coveted alpha dad, and thus are cock blocking themselves.

    I saw this firsthand last night. I went out by myself to my local strip of bars (I’m in a very college centric area and the place was packed at 11:30pm on a Thursday night). I was sitting at the bar drinking a beer, and there were two fairly attractive girls immediately to my left. A guy, decent looking, in shape, probably about 5’10” (only knock is that he was dressed kind of blah, but thats the typical college male look anyways) comes up, politely asks their names and gets to innocuous banter trying to get to know them. A few minutes in he offers to buy them both a drink, but at this point these girls are already fidgety and are planning an excuse to escape (they at least refused).

    At this point I see that he has failed, so I grab the girl he isn’t talking to by the hand, pull her over in front of me and say “I could have done waaayyy better than that”. Of course she challenges me and it becomes a push-pull scenario of meaningless talk with me teasing her about her height (she was probably 5’1″ or so). She is eating this up when her friend finally wiggles out and grabs her to go dance. She says “let’s see if you can dance too” but I declined and that was that.

    So there you have it. Another situation where inane talk and a cocky swagger trumps a more sincere approach. The same girls you are referring to would have probably reacted the same way to the initial approach from the guy and eaten my schitck up. I’ve seen it a million times no matter what those girls say they want.

  • INTJ

    @ Hope

    Zach is kind of looking for a super unicorn, a girl who’s really hot and feminine (8+), extroverted and likes bar hopping, not very hypergamous, loves vulnerability in a man, and is intellectually curious. I have never known any.

    Yeah he’s the male equivalent of women who keep going after alphas and then complain about ending up with jerks…

  • also intj

    Zach, an hourlong talk about Dodd-Frank sounds like a lot of fun to me. I think if you are to have a successful long-term relationship you need to let that side of you show. You’re obviously limiting yourself to a small pool of women, but if there is one in that pool with those kind of interests she would probably be thrilled to find a guy who enjoys conversations like that.

  • Jason773

    Zach is kind of looking for a super unicorn, a girl who’s really hot and feminine (8+), extroverted and likes bar hopping, not very hypergamous, loves vulnerability in a man, and is intellectually curious. I have never known any.

    +1. You might get the first three things, but then won’t get the last three, and vice versa. I’ve never known a girl who fits all that criteria. Closest I’ve seen is feminine 8+, not very hypergamous, loves vulnerability and is intellectually curious. She was an introvert in every sense of the word and did not mind avoiding the bar scene at all.

    • Closest I’ve seen is feminine 8+, not very hypergamous, loves vulnerability and is intellectually curious. She was an introvert in every sense of the word and did not mind avoiding the bar scene at all.

      I’ll second this. I know several women who fit this description, and while they go to bars when single, they are thrilled to “stay in” once they’re in a relationship. One has gradually transitioned in her newish relationship from going out for drinks and dinner all the time to shopping for food together, coming home, grilling and cooking together. They sleep in late, then grab breakfast at a diner or read the paper and have coffee in bed.

      This was very much the way my own relationship with my husband developed. A woman who prefers going out to bars is obviously not interested in emotional intimacy or meaningful conversation.

      That’s another way that Zach is between a rock and a hard place. He prefers partying, but he doesn’t like the party girls he meets.

  • J

    Boardwalk Empire was just a random example of a quality television show. Selected at random.

    I understand that. Plug in any higher quality TV show or any other example of higher level popculture, and my point remains. If you can’t find someone out there who shares your appreciation for it, you’re looking at the wrong pool of women. If something is relatively well known and you still can’t find a woman who likes it or something similar, you need to look elsewhere.

    I’m not saying that if you bring up Boardwalk Empire and the woman doesn’t like it, there’s a problem. I’m saying that there should be a certain level of intelligent response. For example, “Hmmm, I can’t get into Boardwalk Empire; I don’t like Nucky or Atlantic City. Give me Michael Corleone or Tony Soprano anytime…” The woman is still providing you with a line of conversation that leads to further reasonably intelligent discussion. You could debate Irish vs Italian gangsters or modern vs historical settings, etc. Conversely, if you find a gal who responds to the Breaking Bad line with a discussion of whether or not she likes bald men, you may have found an idiot.

    As an aside, I would prefer to have been asked an open-ended question, even something as simply as “So, you’re a big fan of Breaking Bad..?” Although it’s obvious that she is, it gives her an opportunity to go on about the show and opens conversation. Your line just sets you up as someone who makes failed jokes about something she likes. Unless she’s stupid, in which case, she’ll talk about bald men and you’ll sit there wondering why all the women you meet are idiots.

  • J

    Nah. Not happening. Unless they’re alpha jerks. Mike C and I have already expounded just how bad college is for the average guy.

    They aren’t. You can why a mother would worry. I don’t see them as happy participants in the hook up scene, but I also don’t see then “omega” losers or “supplicating betas.” They are two serious boys and I know that there not likely to find the sort of serious girls they need in bars. Yet, having been a serious girl myself, I know those girls are out there, though somewhat invisible.

    It’s possible they could meet a future wife in a bar. Believe it or not, I met DH in a bar at a party I’d been dragged to for a friend of a friend. He knew the b’day girl, but was not actually invited to the party. He happened to be at the bar by chance that night attempting to collect a debt. That sort of dumb luck doesn’t happen often, and I think my sons would have better luck in a college library than a bar. Perhaps I should advise them to do what their dad did–strike up a conversation at a bar with the most pissed off looking women you see. If she looks disgusted, she’s the gal for you.

  • J

    The same girls you are referring to would have probably reacted the same way to the initial approach from the guy and eaten my schitck up. I’ve seen it a million times no matter what those girls say they want.

    I have no doubt that you have had a lot of success. The question is with whom? The sort of girl Zach claims he wants is not likely to respond to inane banter for long, and the sort of girl who really falls for inane banter is not going the be able to discuss econ/politics with him. Hope is right; he can’t have a unicorn.

    As to your example, the guy was too supplicating, not too sincere. Instead of announcing his desire “to get to know them,” he should have used some open-ended questions to get them talking and then calibrated his responses to their level of discourse. Buying drinks as bribery for conversation is a bad move. It either makes a guy look like the sort who believes that the price of a drink entitles him to sex or it looks supplicating.

  • Zach

    @Jason

    “So there you have it. Another situation where inane talk and a cocky swagger trumps a more sincere approach. The same girls you are referring to would have probably reacted the same way to the initial approach from the guy and eaten my schitck up. I’ve seen it a million times no matter what those girls say they want.”

    +1000

    Seen that story play out 1,000 times. Susan, when I approach women at bars, I have no clue if they’re hypergamous, intelligent, intellectual, etc. I just know they’re attractive (with the level depending on how much I’ve had to drink). So in that setting, given that we’ve already agreed that a large number of single girls, even those with intellectual pursuits, go bars, I should have a pretty random sample of hypergamous vs. non-hypergamous, dumb vs. smart, etc. etc. And yet EVERY SINGLE ONE of them gobbles up the “schtick” as Jason puts it.

    Also, re: approaching a large group of girls solo, it’s like jumping into a pool of piranhas. By far the largest chance of landing a nuclear rejection. Every girl in the group is looking to pick you apart, so you’d better be completely on your A-game. I’ve seen some guys come back from such an approach looking like they’ve seen a ghost.

    @Hope

    I agree, it’s quite rare. What I would strike from your description is non-hypergamous. My ex was quite hypergamous (she was an 8+, former sorority girl at the most hard-partying sorority at her school and previously had dated football players, frat stars, etc). To land her, I used quite a bit of the “schtick”. BUT once I had landed her, I could let my guard down and it didn’t matter. She was completely loyal, very, very flexible to my wants (I chose most every restaurant, night out, etc), and never once showed any signs of boredom. So I’m fine with a hypergamous girl. Most hot girls are hypergamous. Being hypergamous in my mind does not equate with lack of intelligence or intellectual curiosity. I don’t have a negative view of hypergamity. I want to date a hot girl. Girls want to date men with resources and social standing. Fair trade. I just don’t want to have to demonstrate it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

    I also don’t need someone who “loves” vulnerability in a man. I’m not in general a vulnerable person. I just need someone who can tolerate it from time to time, and who doesn’t immediately mark it down in the “con” column.

    @J

    “So you’re a big fan of Breaking Bad….?” does absolutely nothing for you as a introduction line. At that point, the only attraction you’re relying on is your looks. It’s a great line if you’re sitting on a couch with someone you’ve been introduced to, but in terms of meeting a stranger? Not gonna work.

    And you’re making the wrong distinction. I know a lot of women who LIKE those shows. I don’t know a lot of women who THINK much about those shows. They turn them on, turn them off, and that’s about as far as their mind goes.

    • @Zach

      I just know they’re attractive (with the level depending on how much I’ve had to drink)

      You’re refreshingly honest, this cracked me up.

      And you’re making the wrong distinction. I know a lot of women who LIKE those shows. I don’t know a lot of women who THINK much about those shows. They turn them on, turn them off, and that’s about as far as their mind goes.

      You know you just described a bimbo, right? This isn’t really making sense to me. The woman who writes a thesis on Austen watches the best, most complex show on TV, but doesn’t “think” about it? There’s something inconsistent here about your FR.

      OK, I’m going to try my hand at great Breaking Bad lines. Other fans should join in!

      Start chatting without introducing yourself. When she asks your name say “Heisenberg.” If she gets it, and laughs, do your best Walter face and say “You’re goddamned right.”

      The banter is flying. She punches your arm and says, “You are so mean, hehe!” You respond, “I am the danger. I am the one who knocks.”

      “Let’s get something straight. This – the chemistry – is my realm.”

      “I’m in the empire business.”

      If you get blown out, grab your crotch and say, “Wipe down this!”

      Alternatively, peer at her top and say, “You’ve got mustard, on your shirt, there.”

      And Jesse is money too for that:

      “Gatorade me bitch!”

  • Zach

    Also, last comment, I know plenty of guys who are extroverted, fun, bar-going, intelligent, attractive and intellectual. In fact I’d say the majority of frat guys at my school were that way (35% of Penn was Greek; pretty much everyone was very, very smart). Almost every guy I knew in a frat at Penn could have a long, intense discussion on politics, biology, or whatever their area of interest, and then turn around and get hammered and game a girl into bed. The two were not at all mutually exclusive. So I think the girls here saying that it’s a super unicorn are talking more from their more limited view (the non-frat, non-social scene) as well.

  • Desiderius

    INTJ.

    “This is why I’ve erred on the cautious side and tried to avoid pursuing relationships rather than change my behavior to get a relationship.”

    Well, women will choose pathy (including psychopathy) over apathy.

    This is a rational choice if those are the only alternatives.

    Sympathy from a position of strength (that comes from knowing oneself and the environment) beats both.

  • J

    Weirdly, all of my mom’s friends think I’m a catch, and have tried to set me up on several occasions with their daughters/nieces etc.

    Don’t accept the offer unless you are going to play nice. You shouldn’t act the cad with these girls. Willingness to pull some meddling old ladies into her love life is an indicator that a young woman is disappointed in the bar scene and looking for more than you may usually offer.

    All this still makes me wonder if I gave up too easily on my ex. A couple weeks before we broke up, I’d talked to her (not as much with her) about “Coming Apart”, which I’d just finished. She asked to borrow it so she could read it, saying she might be interested. At the time, I appreciated the effort, but I thought it was too little too late. Maybe I should have given it some time. Just too many of my conversations on these topics had been more monologues than dialogues. She still has the book btw.

    She tried to make an effort in taking the book. Perhaps she found it unreadable, which tells you something. (The first time I went to DH’s place, I looked at his bookshelves. We had a lot of the same books. I thought. “BINGO!”) Maybe trying to read the book convinced her that attempting to continue the realtionship was futile. How long has she had it? Often, people try to squeeze on last meeting out of returning books or CDs. That she hasn’t says something.

  • Desiderius

    Infantry,

    “Try reverse engineering ThePrivateman’s advice and look at finding the good in every woman you meet. You won’t lose your outcome independance so don’t stress about regressing to chump mode.

    Also women that are really worth forming a pairbond with who are right for you in particular are rare so don’t be discouraged.”

    +1

    Awesome advice.

    This is where I am now and am finally sending out genuine Dad vibes for the first time in forever, maybe ever. Ran into a former boss I really admired who I hadn’t seen in 10 years Sunday, and he said “You’ve really changed.” I said well sure I’ve gotten older, and he said “No, its a good change.” The low-level anger/fronting doesn’t just effect SMP performance.

  • Jason773

    J,

    I have no doubt that you have had a lot of success. The question is with whom? The sort of girl Zach claims he wants is not likely to respond to inane banter for long, and the sort of girl who really falls for inane banter is not going the be able to discuss econ/politics with him. Hope is right; he can’t have a unicorn.

    As to your example, the guy was too supplicating, not too sincere. Instead of announcing his desire “to get to know them,” he should have used some open-ended questions to get them talking and then calibrated his responses to their level of discourse. Buying drinks as bribery for conversation is a bad move. It either makes a guy look like the sort who believes that the price of a drink entitles him to sex or it looks supplicating.

    This is where we differ. Even the intellectual girls who happen to be in a crowded bar are going to want that inane banter and are going to want to see some swagger so that they can feel the tingle. Outside of a bar I think things will be slightly different, but that’s the circle that Zach and I participate in, and thus I have done minimal day game.

    And you’re right, that guy had fairly weak game, but he was just doing what he thought he was ‘supposed to do’. And to reiterate, this guy WAS in the same league as these girls. It’s not like he was a troll shooting for the moon compared to himself. He barely even had a chance.

    • this guy WAS in the same league as these girls. It’s not like he was a troll shooting for the moon compared to himself. He barely even had a chance.

      Well that’s nothing new. There are plenty of good looking beta guys out there who are getting blown out.

      Women read men in literally dozens of ways within seconds. Psychological energy and vibe, micro facial expressions, traces of anxiety, the scent of fear, the timbre of the voice (which reveals emotion), etc.

      If a guy is gorgeous and not sure of himself, it is not subtle. It’s like a foghorn in our ears.

      Forget inane banter. It’s all about comfort in your own skin. You could stand in the corner and look surly and get women like crazy. In fact, that’s a tried and true method.

  • Desiderius

    VD

    “For me, the ultimate test was a woman’s ability to be in the same room with me and be content in silent company for an hour or two. If she can’t do that, then she’s not a true companion. I can’t say my marriage is perfect or ideal, but I can say that it is generally idyllic and she is an excellent companion.”

    [Bob, getting into a pissing contest with VD is a bad idea, he has a nuclear cannon, even if he’s too Cromwellian for this Whig]

    When I was at the top of my Zach mode in my late 20’s I’d gotten some e-mail banter going with an amazing co-worker (primordial text game) and we finally got together for a date that involved driving 45 minutes together (one-way). On the way there, I started noticing I was driving all the conversation, so on the way back, I decided to let her lead. The most uncomfortable 45 minutes of silence in my life.

    She married a good, introverted friend six months later.

  • J

    know a lot of women who LIKE those shows. I don’t know a lot of women who THINK much about those shows. They turn them on, turn them off, and that’s about as far as their mind goes.

    Right, that’s why I’m saying that you should ask an open-ended question. “Do you just like bald guys?” can get you a NO! followed by an eye-roll from a bright girl. An open-ended question will get a wide variety of responses from which you can judge the thinking power of the girl in question. If SHE brings up Walter’s slide into the abyss, you have a winner.

    I sold clothes part-time when I was in college. When I asked “Can I help you find something today?” the answer was usually no. When I asked “What are you looking for today?” all but the rudest had to engage in some converation with me, eve if the answer was “Just browsing.” And then I’d counter with, “Cool. Say, we just got in some of the new blah, blah, blahs. They’re really pretty, and we have some in green which would go great with your red hair. You should try it on, if you have some time. I think it would look terrific on you.” Half the time, they’d ask where the item was.

  • INTJ

    @ Desi

    Well, women will choose pathy (including psychopathy) over apathy.

    I know. And frankly, I don’t care. I’m not going to let womens’ irrational preferences dictate my behavior. I’d rather have indifference towards women than to fake sociopathy just to push their attraction buttons.

  • Zach, I know a lot of Ivy Leaguers and high-status-chasing east coasters because of the schools I went to, and you are right that the social groups don’t have much overlap. 30% of men and almost 40% of women join greek life at my undergrad (Northwestern), but I was never part of it.

    It seems to me you have nothing against hypergamy in theory, but in practice a lot of the problems you run into that you have been complaining about are due to huge doses of hypergamy. I could be off on this mark though. I wish you luck in finding your not-so-rare-but-still-rare female specimen. 😛

  • INTJ

    @ Jason773

    This is where we differ. Even the intellectual girls who happen to be in a crowded bar are going to want that inane banter and are going to want to see some swagger so that they can feel the tingle. Outside of a bar I think things will be slightly different, but that’s the circle that Zach and I participate in, and thus I have done minimal day game.

    And I would venture that it’s not just because girls who go to bars are like that. I would argue that these girls wouldn’t require as much alpha-ness in a different setting. I think the setting affects both the type of people that arrive there and the type of behavior that they exhibit once htey get there.

  • Plain Jane

    Zach, this couple has some advice on places to meet healthy women (hint: its not bars)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVHIp3dCTZM

  • J

    Even the intellectual girls who happen to be in a crowded bar are going to want that inane banter and are going to want to see some swagger so that they can feel the tingle.

    Let me fine tune that for you. I’m a fairly intellectual girl, and I LOVE intellectual banter. If a guy can do that it’s a demonstration of high value to me; I love smart and funny so much I married it. That, not swagger, provides the tingle for me. Nothing fails for me as hard as banter that the guy thinks is clever, but isn’t. There’s a fine line between witty and doucebag. Back in the day, I shut down loads of guys who crossed it –unless, contrary to your example, I thought the guy was really sweet and just trying too hard.

    Nothing is as laughable as a swagger with nothing behind it. If Zach wants a bright girl, he’ll have to deal with her knowing when the emperor really doesn’t have new clothes.

  • Jason773

    Hope,

    30% of men and almost 40% of women join greek life at my undergrad (Northwestern), but I was never part of it.

    A fellow wildcat! Go U! From what I know of you I’m sure you spent many late nights in Tech like me. Good times.

  • Desiderius

    Zach,

    Thanks for sharing (the most unironic I’ve ever meant that).

    “It’s tit-for-tat every time, the whole goal being to get the upper hand.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat is a remarkably effective social strategy, but the key to its success is that it starts with trust. Trusting demonstrates trustworthiness. That signal is being missed both ways.

    “Also, yeah I’m sure there are some attractive girls who don’t go the hypergamy route, but they’re few and far between. Even the smart hot girls I know still date the football stars, the shady dbags, and the frat stars.”

    The sports culture (and to a lesser extent the Greek) was a sort of “patriarchy in reserve” that society (it wasn’t just the feminists) kept around in case it was needed, for instance to fight a war or if the RosietheRiveterarchy went off the rails in some way. Younger women are breaking the glass, and have been for a while.

    “However, that situation is very, very rare. It’s an enclosed environment, with no outside actors, everyone’s hanging out with each other all weekend, and can observe how I interact and behave.”

    It’s social circle game and its not that rare. Where it is rare is as a mating strategy for those at the top, whose misfiring in assortive mating reverberate all the way down the SMP.

    I think Zach is telling Susan something here that may be uncomfortable to hear, and the truth may lie somewhere between them, but it’s not just an excuse for male bad behavior. There has been a Babe Drain of what would have been the female leaders in communities around the country to the metropolitan areas via the universities. They don’t turn out to be the best people but they started out with all the makings and there are a LOT of women who still look up to them. See the final scene in that movie. It is chilling.

    “So, women by and large are very responsible for creating the monsters they wished for.”

    Susan has convinced me they weren’t wishing for monsters. What gets missed is how much of a role women of every generation play in developing the traits in men that they do wish for, and that they seem to only be finding in monsters, if they find them at all.

  • Desiderius

    INTJ,

    “I know. And frankly, I don’t care. I’m not going to let womens’ irrational preferences dictate my behavior. I’d rather have indifference towards women than to fake sociopathy just to push their attraction buttons.”

    Yeah well, you can spare yourself ten years of hell if you read the rest of that comment and get to work on it.

  • Tom

    Required viewing for all young women…the movie, “Looking for Mr. Goodbar.”
    Someone should do a remake of that movie and address the hook up culture.

  • Jackie

    @Zach, J

    (Apologies if this comes off as brusque, a little stressed at the moment!)

    Maybe I missed it, but has anyone brought up the correlation between the huge difference in ROI of women’s looks versus their cultivating intellectual discussion? Perhaps it has been said here — maybe even more than once? 😉 — that all women need to do is increase the hotness and lower the standards. You had better believe that if I’ve only got a spare hour, I will spend it at the gym before picking up Derrida.

    (I remember a guy who once invited me out. I asked him, Which do you prefer, Beauty or Brains? He said, Beauty, definitely. Brains are grey and slimey… not nearly as inviting. He was only half-joking, I think!)

    I was reading yesterday a quote, Intelligence is the booby prize. In many ways, it is very true. (I mean for our society– both men and women.) But I think men benefit from displaying intelligence, far more than women do.

    To be clear: I don’t think of myself as an “intellectual.” In fact, I know I’m not. But I was thinking something that happened yesterday:

    I wasn’t really thinking about social convention and just kind of let my freak flag fly. At a hair appointment, our convo went between music, how stories and songs can be tied into the work of Joseph Campbell, local business regulation, the concept of the “sacred wound” in literature and IRL, and the parallels between Baroque music and 1980s metal. It was a really cool discussion and it only happened because it wasn’t objective-driven, I believe.

    (BTW, obviously I still did my best to be aware of social cues. And would have definitely reined it in if necessary!)

    I don’t know how to reconcile intellectual spark with Game, especially as I’m not a guy. But I think the more that we show glimpses of who we are –instead of who we are “supposed” to be– it can only lead to a better thing. The surface stuff is like candy, sweet and addictive; but ultimately not nourishing or truly satisfying.

    My 3 cents. 🙂

  • Desiderius

    “Moral of story: these girls, who are highly educated, intelligent future lawyers, and who badly want relationships, are looking for them in bars. It’s what single girls do these days. As Susan has mentioned often, most girls don’t know any other way to do it.”

    “Not that my daughter would ever allow me to set her up, I wouldn’t dream of it.”

    There are three legs to the stool. Male behavior, female behavior, and the behavior of the older generations. It will take introspection on the part of all three about how our choices have been working and changes we can make.

    That dream wasn’t always, or even usually, a bad one when mothers used to dream it. Matchmaking can be done non-badly.

  • Tom

    Not sure I would go as far as putting the guy or gal who has had 20 sexual partners in the same breath, psychopathically speaking, with Ted Bundy.
    That would be like putting those accusers who make that link to Ted in the same breath as the Salem witch hunters.
    Both ideas are a bit over the top and obviously false.
    I will be the first to agree there are no doubt nuts who become promiscuous, but to try and link most of them to a mental illness is just fatuous.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “You keep citing Reed College, which is surprising, because they’re about as liberal as Antioch was. Anyway, what else ya got? That’s just one school.”

    Antioch and Reed are as illiberal as the Spanish Inquisition these days. We’ll need people with liberal temperaments and who thus self-identify as liberals to change that. We’re no more happy with the situation than you are.

  • Tom

    I think the main reason young people go to bars to meet others is because, socially, it is easy. I think a lot of the kids today growup socially retarted, compared to older generations. Many lack the social skills to mingle and have no imagination for meeting peers. So they take the easy route, bars. They sit around for hours playing XBOX and PlayStation while “we” were out playing ball, tag, hide and seek, etc. I saw a study somewhere that alluded to that very fact. Sure forced socialization happens in schools, but for the kid who doesnt partake in extracurricular’s or even the elementary kids who have none, the xbox IS their socialization.

  • Escoffier

    Antioch actually closed down. It’s reopen in some sense, but not what it was.

  • Plain Jane

    Jackie, “Perhaps it has been said here — maybe even more than once? 😉 — that all women need to do is increase the hotness and lower the standards.”

    Sorry ma’am, if I increase my hotness you best believe I’m gonna raise my standards!

  • Bushtracker

    Hi Susan. Not sure where to post this as your general page seems closed.

    Fairly recent but systematically obsessive reader, first time poster. I have to say I LOVE what you’re trying to do here and sincerely appreciate how you are not taking the feminist or manosphere side but appear to be genuinely trying to just help as many men and women as possible navigate the messy scrum dating and mating has become and find happiness and love, which I believe is what basically everyone besides the clinical psychos (male and female) want deep down. I’m sort of coming to regard you as the wise auntie that gave me the dirt that my female (friend zoning) friends never wanted or could give me. The closest thing I have to a red pill dispensing fairy godmother.

    I’m from South Africa, white (a regrettably but absurdly significant attribute round here) , from a military family, single, 36, work in trade journalism, INFP to INFJ. I find myself trawling US and Euro sites for relationship advice because the extreme divisions socially and economically here means my peers being the middle -upper class urbanites ( predominantly but not exclusively) white, appear to conform more to the global western culture as exported by the USA and other anglophone countries. Traditional African culture orientated forums with their discussions of Labola (bridal payments) or discussions of the country’s horrific rape statistics (1 in 4 women can be expected to be raped – a product of social implosion and chaotic urbanisation fueled by globalisation) have zip to do with the better off parts of the westernised urban scene you find in Cape Town where I live. General statistics and generalised observations and polls are worthless in a society as divided as mine (GINI – 0.7 last time I checked).

    I especially appreciated your in depth coverage of the “end of men” as prompted by that Atlantic article on guys giving up chasing women and just hitting the bong and playing MMORPGs. I can relate so much to that because its happening here too. The big difference is that there is no welfare system to speak of besides child support micro payments that will really not cover anything besides the absolute minimum for food required for a child to stay alive (they end up supporting whole families so babies hardly get enough to even let their brains grow properly). For the the better off middle class men of my generation (middle class income wise for the USA/Europe but in the top 10-15% in SA) this means the triple pressures of outsourcing, female advancement in the workplace and the so-called “mancession” seems to manifest more intensely than what I hear happening over on your side of the pond. This means none of these matriarchal communes living off the government (they live with their parents or the mom has a good job and hires a cheap maid/nanny). Money is more important to women here as far as I can tell. MUCH more important. If a man doesn’t have a steady income and the standard set of middle class status symbols (car, some decent clothes, private residence) forget it, you’ are never going to get laid, ever. On the other side I know so many middle class girls on the cock carousel getting screwed and dumped over and over and over again its basically the norm. In my mid 30s peer group the single women and single mums with jobs (Despite the Calvinist, predominant conservative Christian upbringing abortions are practically compulsory if you can’t support the child yourself. Also, high AIDS rates nationally, makes the upper classes much more cautious when it comes to condoms than what I’ve observed in Europe and the UK- the poor seem less bothered) outnumber the happily married women with kids 4-1 at least. These days I just tune out my single female friends when they moan about how there aren’t any good men left, usually describing men suspiciously like myself frequently referred to as ‘those losers’. Suffice to say my relations with many of these women have become strained and many formerly close friends are not so anymore. It seems as they move into their late 30’s the ticking of the “clock” is practically making their ears bleed. Concurrent with the dashing of their these woman’s expectations my white middle class male friends seem to be faring a lot worse. Some did good. Some of my school buddies became VPs of IT for major European banks, successful property speculators and financial analysts or lawyers. Socially useless to be sure but it brings in the bucks and its worked out handsomely for them in terms of female attention. The concept of “game” is largely unknown here. You either have money and “success” or you don’t get laid and you certainly won’t get the chance to get married or start a family or buy a house (Goddamn banks kept all the foreclosed properties off the market propping up the bubble so the big pop is still coming -google CT property appreciation, its crazy). Amoung those males I know who couldn’t hack the globalising economy there has been at least one suicide, several spirals into the hell of alcoholism and drug addiction and almost incidentally, a complete embargo on sexual favors from female peers who are mostly traditional christian girls for whom a house to raise children in, supported by a loyal husband that brings home the bacon, is still the demanded “normal” (most of the “losers” can’t even afford the relief of an Xbox due to low PPP but at least weed is super cheap) . I generalise, but birthrates for whites (a good proxy for income level due to Apartheid) has dropped like a rock. Few winners in this game and I look to the future seeing a a lot of beautiful, decent woman of my generation growing old, childless and alone feeling cheated because the boys they grew up with lost it so bad and sunk into the underclasses failing to live up to their expectations in the way their fathers did, in a age when oil was cheap, a man could buy a house working on the railways or an assembly line and a decent life was practically assured just by being an good guy and an honest, hard worker that did his duty to his family. If you want to see what happens when a growing income gap really starts separating winners from losers in an obvious and terrifying way, when formerly comfortable middle class folks are sinking into the lumpen proletariat swamp before your eyes, come pay us a visit (visitors can ignore the crime stats, tourists are safe. 90% of SA’s murders are jobless spouses beating their wives to death as opposed to muggers targeting tourists and there’s lots of lovely things to see and do… but I digress).
    On the bright side the economic situation is so unstable and global economic/ecological/social implosion so apparently imminent its hard not to look forward to a more brutal age when being a cocky asshat stockbroker in a Dior suit won’t count for much when faced with a bitter unemployed tradesman that knows how to use a combat knife. (you make a point of picking these things up when you’re forced to live in a slum where you can watch people being murdered from your balcony). Funny huh, how folks like me are rooting for social collapse just so we have a chance to live up to traditional values and get some female attention again.

    Anyway Susan, keep up the good work
    God Bless
    Bushtracker

  • J

    Jackie,

    You never sound brusque. Re brains vs. beauty, that’s a hard one, which to emphasize is the smart girls dilemma. At the risk of bragsplaining and pissing off OTC ;-), I graduated college Phi Beta Kappa and had a kick ass body to boot. I would not have called myself a butterface, but I wasn’t All-American girl pretty. However, if a guy liked exotic Mediterrean features, I had that in spades. I could have played up either side with that, and eventually experimented with both.

    Here are my findings: When I played up hot-looking, it attracted loads of guys, but I didn’t like most of them. When I dressed down and sat in the library looking bookish, I attracted the occasional brave nerd. Many of the library guys were probably attracted but also scared to approach me. I did not really get his at the time, so I felt rejected. I finally just stopped trying so hard and ending up, albeit later in life, with exactly the sort of guy you’d expect me to attract of you believe in assortative mating–a good-looking, Mediterrean guy with a PBK key. You can’t get around who you are. Like attracts like. All you can do is try to be where you can find a like-minded guy. And for all of that, I still met DH by chance. I was the right girl in the wrong place, but I was still the right girl.

    Upthread, someone said, “Even the smart hot girls I know still date the football stars, the shady dbags, and the frat stars.” I think I was both about as hot and smart as one girl could reasonably get. I never dated a frat or football star and I tried to avoid douches like the plague. I don’t see the attraction for a smart girl, and I can’t see putting a lot of effort into changing who you are in order to find such a guy. The guy you’ll be happiest with is the one who loves all that you are. If you want to go to the gym, go. If you want to read a book read it. Don’t expect that doing either will land you a great guy. Just know that whatever do you, it goes into creating you. Then, know yourself and then know your demographic.

  • Desiderius

    Escoffier,

    “Not that I am holding myself up as an exemplar here or anything, but if you read my posts you’ll notice that I only ever respond to the people I think are worth talking to, a number which is probably smaller than 50% of the commenters.”

    There is also the phenomenon of not generally responding to the people with whom one is in full agreement, with the exception of those rare times when that is not the case. That can create a false impression.

  • J

    There is also the phenomenon of not generally responding to the people with whom one is in full agreement, with the exception of those rare times when that is not the case. That can create a false impression.

    I do that, and I think sometimes I come off as sort of combative as a result. I’m trying to cosign more, but I’m not sure what it adds to the conversation.

  • Desiderius

    J,

    “I’m trying to cosign more, but I’m not sure what it adds to the conversation.”

    Heh, not much. Just being aware of the phenomenon can be conducive to more trust/confidence without the need for validation.

  • J

    @INTJ

    Desi:Well, women will choose pathy (including psychopathy) over apathy.

    INTJ: I know. And frankly, I don’t care. I’m not going to let womens’ irrational preferences dictate my behavior. I’d rather have indifference towards women than to fake sociopathy just to push their attraction buttons.

    Even if Desi is correct, I can’t see you successfully faking sociopathy or even liking the sort of woman that attracts. Nevertheless, I think you are rather fortunate in that there is a matchmaking network availbale for you if you chose, IIRC. I wish that was there for my sons, especially since they probably won’t marry college sweethearts and pickings get slimmer and opportunities get fewer as we age.

  • J

    Yeah, I feel like dope every time I write “cosign,” but I think it has definite social value.

    That sentence may be the spergiest I’ve ever written, BTW.

  • Jason, cool! NU was good to me. I later worked with quite a few people who also graduated from there.

  • @Bushtracker.

    Skryf nog oor die single vrouens in jou ouderdomsgroep asseblief. Ek’s bly daar’s nog ‘n Saffa op hierdie blog. Welkom.

    • Marellus, you speak Afrikaans? That’s crazy, definitely a first on HUS!

  • Jack: ” At the risk of bragsplaining and pissing off OTC”

    That’s just bragging, not bragplaining.

    Bragplaining is bringing up impressive details couched in an transparently fake complaint about something trivial.

    Stuff like “My Porsche and Jaguar are *both* in the shop, I hate it when that happens!” and “My husband is so annoying, he kept me up to 4 am last night having sex. He came 5 times in a row with no stopping, and now I’m exhausted from all those multiple orgasms” and “I can’t stand the cost of education, it cost me $189,000 to get my Master’s from Harvard in just 1.5 years”.

  • Zach

    @OTC

    Actually, it’s called Humblebragging. http://twitter.com/Humblebrag

  • Escoffier

    Desiderius,

    Once again, I don’t know what you are trying to say. You’re starting to remind me of Yohami.

  • Heh, so it is. Humblebragging is the slyer, more insidious version of overt bragplaining. (I don’t own a TV, so I’m not up to date on all the slang that all you sheeple use these days.)

  • Sai

    @Deli
    I guess I should read a book or article with each viewpoint just to make sure I understand it all.
    (curse it, I was way too young to really understand what it all meant)

    @Plain Jane
    Ever since middle school my own mother has tried to warn me that my despair of small talk and not smiling unless I find something pleasant or funny will cause people to see me as cold. Somebody has asked me if I was autistic, and somebody has asked her if I was retarded (which kind of irritated me, because he actually was… but they paid me $75 to tutor him so I’m OK now). I was on a site where fans write stories, looking at somebody’s work that had a gender-bent version of one of the protagonists. Lots of people liked it, the comments said things like “great job blending the character’s personality with how girls really act.”
    0’00 “Yeah, she did great.”
    0’02 “Wait, what?”
    And when I spent way too long Googling “how do girls act”/”what are girls like” I knew I had a problem.
    I don’t want to completely morph into a touchy-feely mother to all living things. I’m honestly still not sure what I’ll gain from this -visual component is seriously lacking, which is why I saw no point in being that sort of girl -or even where to start. But I am curious, and I often see gals who don’t like how the sexes currently interact being exhorted to act more girly. If nothing else I’ll be better able to follow female characters’ thought patterns.

    @Anacaona
    Don’t feel bad, there are some tropes I can’t wrap my head around either.

    @J
    “It’s hard to be completely outcome independent if you care about someone, but I think a relationship thrives when both parties love each other but don’t necessarily need each other.”
    I think that’s the best way to be too.

    @VD
    ” I also knew a fairly well-known writer who got into a gunfight in the dark with a home intruder.  He emptied most of a 15-round magazine, the intruder emptied his 6-shot revolver.  Even though they were in the same room, neither one of them hit the other.”
    I will now re-think my home invasion strategy.

    @Ted D
    “But lets face it, her script is EXACTLY what the socialist/feminists/anyists want you to think: women ARE NOT responsible for their own choices and actions, and you can’t make them TAKE responsibility!”
    The innate irresponsibility of women… sounds to me like a reason for men to keep them inside where they can’t hurt themselves or others. This is part of why I can’t be a feminist, so much hypocrisy.

    @Susan Walsh
    “At 2 am that same night he told her to come over to his apartment. When she responded “Are you serious right now?” he said, “Fuck you, you think you’re hot shit and you expect to be wined and dined? Get over here.” It didn’t work, and he actually called during the week to set up a legit date saying he’d been drunk before. That didn’t work either – in fact, the only reason she answered was because she didn’t know who was calling.”

    I would have blocked his number from every device I owned. At 2 AM, Connery and Hvorostosky could jointly call me and I’d still be mad enough to spit nails.

    @Bushtracker
    I sure learned something today. I would like to visit South Africa one day, so thanks for the invite… and for the warning. Sorry things are so crappy.

  • @Antitype and J

    In fact, I think differently about most any women I meet and interact with outside the frame of a sexual encounter.

    That’s a huge point. My close female friends, sister, mother, etc aren’t women when I used to go on tears about women. Women are people with whom I might want to have romantic and sexual attachments.

    My opinion of women, although perhaps not what it was a few years ago when I went on rants like “all women are whores in the end, prostitutes are just the ones who are honest about it” and “the only honest women are prostitutes” and so on, is better but it never applied to my friends. They weren’t women but D and J and so on.

  • VD

    I think men benefit from displaying intelligence, far more than women do.

    Men do, but they also have to rein it in at times. My wife has mastered the raised eyebrow that means “for the love of all that is good and holy, shut up NOW, honey” to which she occasionally resorts when someone starts talking about the economy or something and invites my response. I’ve made a mental note that I should always stop talking within 30 seconds of mentioning either Z1 or the money supply. If someone genuinely wants to know more, they will ask.

    It was a really cool discussion and it only happened because it wasn’t objective-driven, I believe.

    This sounds precisely like the checkbox discussion I mentioned earlier. I imagine it was very enjoyable and I expect that there was absolutely no point to it. That’s not a criticism, after all, you could have just as easily been discussing the Kardashians or the NFL. But it does serve as a nice illustration of my point.

  • Plain Jane

    Sai, from what I’ve read it appears your situation is unique for either male or female.

    People think you have autism and one person thought you were retarded because of the way you come off socially. That doesn’t mean you’re more masculine or less feminine.

    “The innate irresponsibility of women… sounds to me like a reason for men to keep them inside where they can’t hurt themselves or others.”

    Innate irresponsibility of women? Are you serious? Sai, you really need to lay off reading the sphere-that-shan’t-be-named blogs. First you considered the idea that women getting the vote might be wrong, and now this. These ideas are why that sphere is not taken seriously and so far has done nothing to advance the cause of fathers in cases of unfair child support laws, which I might add is the only legit concept they toy with. And toy with it is all they do. The bulk of their energy is spent blogging innane nonsense against civil rights and human rights.

    Their agenda is to make even women become women-haters.

  • @Modernguy

    The reason girls go for psychopaths is because they’ve made romance into a game and psychopaths and cads provide the most drama, and therefore, the most fun. As long as it’s allowed to go on it will get worse.

    Thanks for reminding me of something I wanted to bring up.

    I was watching the author of Jane Austen’s Guide to Happily Ever After speak on BookTv and she had some interesting points.

    She argued that Austen lived in a time where people had just started to have real choice in who to marry. There was an emphasis on making a good choice but already Austen was seeing some women choosing more dramatic choices over good one. Kantor decided that the advice to making good choices could be found in Austen given she was writing about people who did and didn’t make those choices.

    I haven’t read the book but I wondered if Susan (or anyone else) had or seen this talk and had thoughts.

  • J

    @OTC

    Bragplaining is bringing up impressive details couched in an transparently fake complaint about something trivial.

    I stand corrected, but real bragsplaining would be, “My husband is so annoying, he kept me up to 4 am last night having sex. I came 5 times in a row with no stopping, and now I’m exhausted from all those multiple orgasms.” If you’re gonna complain about MOs, they might as well be your own, not your husband’s.

    Love,

    Jack 😉

  • @Bob Wallace @Vox Day

    Here is a link to a paper that proposes there is a difference in triggers for aggression between narcissists and psychopaths.

    The main thrust is that a narcissist will become violent if the narcissist is humiliated, but the narcissist will not become violent if the narcissist is physically provoked.

    On the other hand, a psychopath does not become violent if humiliated, but will resort to violence, excessive violence, if the psychopath is physically provoked.

  • Plain Jane

    “I generalise, but birthrates for whites (a good proxy for income level due to Apartheid) has dropped like a rock. Few winners in this game and I look to the future seeing a a lot of beautiful, decent woman of my generation growing old, childless and alone feeling cheated because the boys they grew up with lost it so bad and sunk into the underclasses failing to live up to their expectations in the way their fathers did, in a age when oil was cheap, a man could buy a house working on the railways or an assembly line and a decent life was practically assured just by being an good guy and an honest, hard worker that did his duty to his family. If you want to see what happens when a growing income gap really starts separating winners from losers in an obvious and terrifying way, when formerly comfortable middle class folks are sinking into the lumpen proletariat swamp before your eyes, come pay us a visit”

    Bushtracker, do you want the government to help these white former middle class folk who are singing into the lumpen proletariat?

    In the US the lumpen proletariat was enabled to move up into the middle class via FDR’s programs and unionizing. Both are now blamed, along with Feminism, as “ruining America” by many in the “sphere”.

    What is it that you see could help these white former middle class folk in your country re-enter the middle class?

  • J: 5 in a row is a lot for a man, but not much for a woman. If you’re gonna brag, aim higher!

  • Don’t feel bad, there are some tropes I can’t wrap my head around either.

    I don’t get mad I get even I have a scientific utopian world planned for the future I know probably nobody will like it, but fuck them my universe my rules. I still think is very annoying when people bash science specially writers when they use it everyday without even thinking about it. I didn’t even had running water on my house growing up or toilet (we had a latrine). I know what life is like without technology spear me the warnings, unless you are living in a cabin, washing in the river and digging a hole to poo you are being ungrateful…Sorry again I need to shut up now…*breatheinbreatheout*

  • @Herb
    Checking out the amazon review they lost me at: steering clear of the sad endings suffered by characters such as Maria Bertram and Charlotte Lucas—modern women can discover the path to lifelong love and true happiness.

    Again Charlotte was not pretty/rich enough to get anyone better than Mr Collins, and she was approaching 30 so her time window was closing fast… And really she was very cerebral is not like she was dreaming of prince charming and ended up with a toad. She surely knew herself well enough to get that she was going to be better off as a bride than as a spinster,do people really preferred her single and likely dependent of her brothers/relatives for the rest of her life than married and having a family to Mr Collins?…don’t get it at all. :/

  • Plain Jane

    “And when I spent way too long Googling “how do girls act”/”what are girls like” ”

    Sai, girls act like YOU. You are a girl so how you act is how girls like you act.

    Do not box yourself in or try to become someone else, girlfriend. There is no one way to be a girl.

    • “And when I spent way too long Googling “how do girls act”/”what are girls like” ”

      Sai, girls act like YOU. You are a girl so how you act is how girls like you act.

      This is not necessarily true. Two generations of women have been raised to suppress femininity and embrace masculine behaviors. They don’t know what girls are like when allowed to develop and mature naturally, without social engineering.

  • VD

    I still think is very annoying when people bash science specially writers when they use it everyday without even thinking about it. I didn’t even had running water on my house growing up or toilet (we had a latrine). I know what life is like without technology spear me the warnings, unless you are living in a cabin, washing in the river and digging a hole to poo you are being ungrateful,

    Your position makes no sense. Running water and sewage systems have absolutely nothing to do with science. In fact, plumbing predates science by around 4,500 years as the first indications of drain tile date back to Mesopotamia. That’s not widely known, but you should certainly be familiar with the Roman aqueducts. Your lack of running water and sewage had everything to do with a ludicrously backwards culture and nothing to do with science or technology that had already existed for nearly 5,000 years. Furthermore, if you want to talk about gratitude, then you should note that it is technology and societal wealth that drive science forward; for the most part science is a consequence, not a cause.

    Some technologies do come from new scientific discoveries. No one disputes that. But the fact is that far more scientific discoveries are the result of new technologies invented by non-scientists permitting scientists to play around with new hypotheses. Consider Galileo’s telescope, for example. Looking at the rings of Saturn and hypothesizing about the heavens didn’t make his fancy new glass toy, it was the Dutch spectacle makers whose technological advances allowed him to discover the rings and become the father of modern science.

  • Plain Jane

    “J: 5 in a row is a lot for a man, but not much for a woman. If you’re gonna brag, aim higher!”

    Agreed. I would be more like;

    Woman shows up frazzled for her kids play date with a few other mixed gendered parents and their kids.

    “Sorry I’m late and look like crap. I didn’t get any sleep last night. I came home from work and my hot, muscular husband 10 years my junior picked me up as soon as I walked through the door, carried me into the room he designed, built and decorated to be our “love room” (different from our bedroom because we co-sleep with the kids so he has easier access to them when they wake up in the middle of the night and he needs to soothe them back to sleep), and he plopped me down on the bed he made himself (carpentry skills, great with his hands!), and proceeds to give me a foot massage with a hot sandalwood-patchouli blend oil, after which he slowly moved up my body, undressing me, for a full body massage – for an hour, oh yeah did I mention he’s certified in 5 different types of massage?

    Anyway after that, he ran a hot bath for me and scrubbed my back as I soaked in the bubbles. While I dried off he set up the tray in the bedroom with my dinner – all homemade by him, remember he’s good with his hands AND a gourmet cook to boot. As a gesture he placed a freshly picked flower next to my plate on the tray. Great sense of aesthetics too!

    After than he removed the tray and proceeded to make long, lingering love to me. First by sucking my toes and working his way orally up my body. That took a few hours and produced about 20 orgasms, more or less.

    As if that weren’t enough he produced about 20 more orgasms, but this time they were SIMULTANEOUS with his, and we all know how rare simultaneous orgasms are, they take a lot of control on the man’s behalf but double and even triple the Oxytocin brain flood.

    Whew! All I had to do was lay back, relax and take it all in! Oh, did I mention the size and shape of his “manhood”? This is a mixed parent group so out of respect for the dads here I’ll refrain, but mom’s, call me later for the details 😉

    After this I began to fall asleep in his arms when he whispered in my ear, “Honey, go ahead and quit your job, we’re moving to a custom made tree house on the island of Maui overlooking the sea, smack in the middle of a papaya and mango tree jungle – all on my dime. For the rest of your life you’ll never have to wear shoes or answer to a boss again.”

    Well, of course you can imagine after that I just could not possibly fall asleep, so here I am, exhausted and looking like crap. So sorry”

    🙂

  • Just1X

    Want to know why it’s pointless talking to radfems (radical feminists) like Plain Jane?

    They don’t share reality with humanity. They don’t argue honestly (as pointed out above in the comments). No lie is too big or small to tell. No evasion too slippery (Clinton would be proud to be in their league).

    Here is a link to the research of a guy ‘Agent Orange’, who infiltrated radfemhub; http://agentorangefiles.com/

    Beyond comments by child ‘carers’ saying they despised their baby boy charges as ‘future rapists’. There’s speculation on how we should genetically modify men, or just kill (90% – 100%) of them.

    At the bottom of that page is a video by SCUM (Society for Cutting Up Men) made as a public service video in Sweden. It was on Youtube for a year before Agent Orange released his research.

    A man reading a newspaper in a lounger is shot twice in the head by a woman, the female film crew then commence sticking fingers in the head wounds, licking the wounds and dancing in joy. This is the joy of a radfem.

    http://counterfem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/interesting-video-about-agent-orange.html

    http://www.manwomanmyth.com/feminism/feminisms-underbelly-the-agent-orange-files/

    So, I’d rather take lessons on morality from a chimp than listen to a radfem. And underneath they are all like that, nucking futs.

    There’s nothing even close to that sh1t in the manosphere.

    This has been a public service broadcast in defence of sanity, reality and honesty.

    Don’t feed the hate filled troll

  • Desiderius

    Escoffier,

    “Once again, I don’t know what you are trying to say. You’re starting to remind me of Yohami.”

    J got the point. You’re plenty sharp enough to do so too. Happy to provide clarification if you’ll be more specific.

    I’m not intentionally obscure, but if these things weren’t difficult to communicate about, we’d have already figured them out.

    • “Once again, I don’t know what you are trying to say. You’re starting to remind me of Yohami.”

      A reader tipped me off this week that Yohami was pouting again about his HUS experience, and that she thought he might want to come back. I went to his blog to read the relevant post. I read it five times and could make no sense of it whatsoever. I can’t decide whether he just slings bullshit and laughs his ass of at anyone who takes him seriously, or whether he actually believes this stuff. Sadly, I suspect it’s the latter.

  • Desiderius

    Escoffier,

    Did you check out that Berlin link? The link doesn’t really do him justice. Better discussion in his Three Critics of the Enlightenment. Berlin was a supporter of the Enlightenment, but like a good liberal (he was the best) he paid close attention to its critics. We should be so lucky to have liberals like him today.

  • @VD
    Applied science is the application of human knowledge to build or design useful things. That includes plumbing, you are referring to the scientific method. No to mention the modern plumbing system is a lot more complicated than the Roman aqueducts I’m not that old.

  • VD

    Applied science is the application of human knowledge to build or design useful things. That includes plumbing, you are referring to the scientific method.

    Do you really think I’m not going to notice your attempt to move the goalposts? We both know perfectly well that none of the science critics who annoy you are criticizing “applied science” or as it is more customarily known, engineering. They are criticizing modern, professional science, which pays at least lip service to the formal scientific method and dates back to the 1500s. Kuhn may look all the way back to Aristotle for paradigms in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions but his criticism of science was correctly seen by modern scientists as an indictment of them, as they believed their method rendered them unsusceptible to the mistakes of the ancient philosophers. Babbage didn’t write Reflections of the Decline of Science in England to criticize Archimedes, and even the thumpiest of Bible-thumping Young Earth Creationists isn’t criticizing any scientist who goes further back than Darwin. I am a science critic myself, and few of my criticisms go back further than the middle of the 20th century.

    Wikipedia: While empirical investigations of the natural world have been described since classical antiquity (for example, by Thales, Aristotle, and others), and scientific methods have been employed since the Middle Ages (for example, by Ibn al-Haytham, Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī and Roger Bacon), the dawn of modern science is generally traced back to the early modern period, during what is known as the Scientific Revolution that took place in 16th and 17th century Europe.

    Now, in the unlikely event I am incorrect, please feel free to direct me to one of those criticisms of pre-modern science that so annoy you. I should very much like to read one, as I have yet to encounter any such thing and it certainly sounds amusing.

  • modernguy

    Lol at the Vox vs Bob fight. Clearly shouting past each other and no one will capitulate. Finally Vox “clarifies” by taking a meaning of psychopathy which is technically accurate and of course defensible in depth (the chief consideration) but is at the same time a totally different meaning than Bob was intending.

    Bob: psychopaths on the level of serial killers and mass murderers have deep seated feeling of shame and humiliation.

    (The relevant question here is: does this relate in any way to psychopaths as referred to in this discussion?)

    Vox: psychopath is a word in the dictionary that by statistical measures potentially describes four million people! You idiot!!

    Observer: Wtf is wrong with these people??

  • INTJ

    @ J

    Even if Desi is correct, I can’t see you successfully faking sociopathy or even liking the sort of woman that attracts. Nevertheless, I think you are rather fortunate in that there is a matchmaking network availbale for you if you chose, IIRC. I wish that was there for my sons, especially since they probably won’t marry college sweethearts and pickings get slimmer and opportunities get fewer as we age.

    Yeah it’s nice. Unfortunately, my older brother is taking his own sweet time getting married, so my relatives are focusing on finding him a girl before they get to me. 😀 But it’s certainly good to know that help will be there if I can’t find someone on my own.

    As for your sons, I would still suggest that networking with friends to try and find girls to set them up with isn’t impossible. You just have to be subtle about it and make it seem like they “happen to meet”. 🙂

  • modernguy

    Vox @390 feels like Newton expounding on the intricacies of alchemy to a four year old niece just to make himself feel like all that knowledge about alchemy acquired was worth something. Anything. Please! Let me write an essay about it!

  • INTJ

    @ J

    Even if Desi is correct, I can’t see you successfully faking sociopathy or even liking the sort of woman that attracts.

    And yes, this is the big thing. Even if I did manage to fake sociopathy, I simply would not like the sort of woman that attracts.

    It’s why I’m trying to figure out where/how to meet the right girls, rather than try to attract the wrong girls, as PUAs do.

  • Plain Jane

    INTJ, I don’t get it, you’re desi right? Just go to all the desi cultural events. Or are there no desis in your area? In that case do what these two say to meet healthy, more wholesome women;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVHIp3dCTZM

  • INTJ

    @ Plain Jane

    INTJ, I don’t get it, you’re desi right? Just go to all the desi cultural events. Or are there no desis in your area? In that case do what these two say to meet healthy, more wholesome women;

    Oh there are plenty of desis in the Bay Area. But unlike desis elsewhere, desis here tend to be pretty integrated into the society as a whole. I think that’s normally a good thing. Unfortunately though, it means that the few desis who aren’t as integrated and go to desi cultural events tend to be Hindutva types. No way I’d be able to get along with one of them…

  • Plain Jane

    OK well, do what the couple in the video say. And it should be easy to find these places and types of women in the Bay Area. I know California is full of these types of holistic meetups.

    “Unfortunately though, it means that the few desis who aren’t as integrated and go to desi cultural events tend to be Hindutva types. ”

    Whoa there! Just because someone takes pride in her ethno-culture and practices her religion does not mean she is “Hindutva”.

    Jai Hind!

    😉

  • Samael

    This is kinda late but I want to back up what Zach and Jason have been saying.

    Last year me and my buddy both tried online dating using POF (Plenty of Fish). I didn’t put much into it so I didn’t have any results, but my buddy wrote a pretty good profile. He is also ex military and a damn smart guy with a nice QT job at Boeing, in decent shape, and the outgoing type. He did whole thought out first message based on their interests and actually reading their profile. His response rate was 1 out of like 60 messages, and after 2 messages she was MIA. So he decides to give up.

    About 8 months later he tries again. This time he’s drinking with his brother when he signs up. He messages 32 women in one night with literally one of 2 messages:
    1. “I would wreck that shit”
    2. (to any woman with a pic of her in a kitchen or cooking) “re: kitchen pic I like a woman that knows her place”
    Response in 48 hrs was 27 replies and 6 contained phone numbers therein.
    Half of these women were ones that blew him off before on his first attempts, also I would say about 75% were in college or college grads with good jobs, not just ignorant single mom types.

    Also these profiles are the typical I’m tired of jerks, where are the nice guys, I want a real man, not looking for sex, don’t bother messaging me for a hook up or a ONS blah blah blah blah.

    So here we are with one hell of a conundrum…. when being yourself is something you need to be able to do to make a relationship work but being yourself isn’t as attractive as pretending to be Douchey McSwagger, what the hell is a guy supposed to do?

  • Samael

    Woops…..The Response rate the 2nd time on POF was supposed to read 27 replies out of 32 messages sent..

  • VD

    Finally Vox “clarifies” by taking a meaning of psychopathy which is technically accurate and of course defensible in depth (the chief consideration) but is at the same time a totally different meaning than Bob was intending.

    The point is that it is the only meaning of psychopathy, modernguy. Whatever Bob was describing is not, by definition, psychopathy. Moreover, you are ignoring the fact that he was using his false version of the concept to repeat his attack on a broad spectrum of writers, including Roissy and me. Parts of his comments were almost verbatim from his comment on a previous post. Roissy is not even remotely sociopathic. I actually score lower than average on the Hare checklist. And most alphas are not psychopathic, although some are. One of the psychopaths of my acquaintance certainly is.

    Vox @390 feels like Newton expounding on the intricacies of alchemy to a four year old niece just to make himself feel like all that knowledge about alchemy acquired was worth something. Anything. Please! Let me write an essay about it!

    Again, you’re ignoring the fact that Bob was using the false information as a foundation for an attack on a broad spectrum of writers, including me. Now, I could certainly take the patented Richard Dawkins approach and proclaim myself too important and too influential to deign to notice such a flea. But that’s not my style. And if I simply wanted to write an essay for its own sake, I would have posted it on my blog for my readers. All that being said, this is Susan’s blog, not mine. If she prefers that I leave people to express their feelings as fact and pass off provably false information as truth, that’s fine and she has only to let me know. I’m not the Reality Police.

  • VD

    I know a lot of women who LIKE those shows. I don’t know a lot of women who THINK much about those shows. They turn them on, turn them off, and that’s about as far as their mind goes.

    Dude, it’s television. TELEVISION. You know, the vast wasteland. Who gives the smallest spark of a damn about what anyone thinks about a television show, be they male or female? Television shows aren’t intelligent or for the intellectually curious, they’re mind candy. Even their references are little more than meaningless checkboxes and callouts. You’ll find it more effective to cut directly to the chase by simply asking women for the last book they read.

    And people will surprise you. One of the hottest women on the club scene in my city turned out to be a massive Charles Dickens fan and had a complete collection on a special bookshelf in her apartment.

  • VD

    Women read men in literally dozens of ways within seconds. Psychological energy and vibe, micro facial expressions, traces of anxiety, the scent of fear, the timbre of the voice (which reveals emotion), etc.

    Men find this very hard to understand because we’re deaf, dumb, and blind in comparison.

    • @VD

      Men find this very hard to understand because we’re deaf, dumb, and blind in comparison.

      In fairness, I think most of this occurs at the subconscious level in women. We know within 10 seconds if we’re attracted or not, but we often cannot say why or why not.

  • VD…”it is technology and societal wealth that drive science forward; for the most part science is a consequence, not a cause.”

    Partly true….as someone once remarked, “until about 1870, the steam engine did more for science than science did for the steam engine.” But while you can do a workmanlike job of designing a conventional steam engine without knowing anything about thermodynamics, you aren’t going to get very far creating a steam turbine unless you have good theoretical understanding.

    And while the early steam-engine builders may have known nothing about thermodynamics (or maybe even Newtonian physics), they did understand the concept of the *experiment*…try a higher steam pressure, or more water flow through the condenser, see what happens, rinse & repeat.

  • Sai

    @VD
    It’s not just guys, I still don’t understand how the whole vibe/energy thing works.
    What does fear smell like?

  • VD

    But while you can do a workmanlike job of designing a conventional steam engine without knowing anything about thermodynamics, you aren’t going to get very far creating a steam turbine unless you have good theoretical understanding.

    Absolutely. The point is that if you look at most fields in detail, you will find that engineering and technology tend to drive science more than science drives them, contra the popular misconception. And yet, one seldom hears anyone appealing to the authority of engineering and technology, whereas appeals to the authority of science are quite common.

  • Just1X

    @Sai

    it smells brown, I believe. HTH

  • Desiderius

    INTJ,

    “And yes, this is the big thing. Even if I did manage to fake sociopathy, I simply would not like the sort of woman that attracts.”

    How did you get “fake sociopathy” out of my comment? The goal is “sympathy,” literally “struggling together”, which becomes less of a struggle as one gets more practice.

    Roissy talks about amused mastery. You’re smart enough to master both the dating environment and understanding female attraction triggers. Put in proper perspective (understanding how we screw up in our own lives), they can actually be amusing.

    They’re looking for that perspective.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “return to the ‘old ways'”

    Heh – there’s no turning back the clock, not in this culture.

    Old probably won’t sell. Timeless might.

  • Plain Jane

    INTJ, us South Asians are lucky. We can dabble in the dating scene and still fall back on arranged marriage before 30 if nothing works out. So what’s your problem exactly yaar?

  • Now, in the unlikely event I am incorrect, please feel free to direct me to one of those criticisms of pre-modern science that so annoy you. I should very much like to read one, as I have yet to encounter any such thing and it certainly sounds amusing.

    ??? Did you read what I was referring too? The trope science is bad.
    Writers are not scientists.* Whether it is because they perceive science as cold and emotionless, or because they just disliked science and embraced literature after failing math in high school, luddism is an awfully common philosophy in the arts community. The typical theme is that some sort of advanced scientific research has Gone Horribly Wrong, creating a monster, causing an impending natural disaster and/or a massive government cover-up. The heroes typically discover the side-effects of the research and investigate, discover what’s going on, and try to stop it.

    The antagonist (almost always either corporate or military/government scientists — and not hot) refuses to believe that his work could be so badly flawed and/or immoral, or simply doesn’t care about who gets hurt by it, insisting that the research is For Science!! They will generally use their influence with the government to make life difficult for the heroes; this can include trying to have them arrested and/or otherwise silenced, often leading to a shoot-out, jail break, or Chase Scene.

    In the end, the scientist will be destroyed by his own creation, the heroes will be proven right, and through their efforts the world will be saved from the horror of science. Sometimes the theme is softened by the presence of The Professor among the heroes who represents a more reasonable take on the science involved.

    This can often come off as a bit hypocritical, particularly when dealing with speculative fiction, as you get an Anvilicious message of “everything we have so far is good, but we should stop now.”

    Nearly every Robot War story is based off of this (except the ones where everything was all right, until humanity screwed it up by being jerks to the nice robots). There are a few popular current fields as well, like cloning, genetic engineering, and surveillance.

    For obvious reasons, this is played down in series starring a Science Hero, heroic android, or Robot Buddy, such as in some anime. It’s more likely that there will be a (still obvious) distinction between good and bad scientists. This is usually played up if the heroes are Phlebotinum Rebels, though.

    Note that not every work with a Mad Scientist or a threat borne of science falls under this; it’s only the case where Messing With Things You Ought Not To is blamed for the problems.

    The trope rarely makes a distinction between pure science and applied technology.

    Frequently overlaps with Green Aesop. May be paired with Industrialized Evil.

    Compare and contrast Cyber Punk, where the rebel hero goes up against The Man who maintains control through technology; Post Cyber Punk tends to embrace new technology less critically. Typically, you will find there is No Transhumanism Allowed. See also Harsher in Hindsight and Seinfeld Is Unfunny for when a world meant to be portrayed as a Dystopia Twenty Minutes into the Future bears a curious resemblance to present day technological advancements that are taken for granted by the audience.

    If the writer is sincere in their belief that Technology Is Evil, they may thrust the characters into a situation (Closed Circle, After the End, etc.) where they must survive without (most of) the technology, and take the good with the bad; compare Space Amish. The inverse of this is a Cozy Catastrophe, where the heroes are able to get General Motors, police and hair salons up and running again only a few months after America Wins The War, with similarly unfortunate implications on the opposite end of the spectrum, implying that the writer believes in the Status Quo. Zeerust can have a similar effect if an otherwise futuristic (or even “dystopian”) technocratic society bears a curious resemblance to when it was written and problems the society was experiencing at the time.

    Any time this trope shows up, you are very likely to find Romanticism Versus Enlightenment in its wake (and the work will be taking the Romanticist side). Related tropes include the Mad Scientist, Reluctant Mad Scientist, The Evil Army, Government Conspiracy, Corrupt Corporate Executive, Government As Villain, Mr. Exposition, Technical Pacifist, and Well-Intentioned Extremist. The protagonist is often assisted by an Anti-Hero who used to work for the Mad Scientist, and frequently has to deal with a Pointy-Haired Boss. See also Science Is Wrong. Polar opposite of most stories with a Science Hero.

    See also the Scale of Scientific Sins as well as Ambition Is Evil. Not to be confused with Do Not Try This At Home when Science is Dangerous, cause yeah, sometimes it is.

    Chill out man.

  • Desiderius

    Actually, better Arnold link here.

    The author is wrong about one thing. He was not in fact an optimist, he didn’t see things getting better, but he recognized that despair is ultimately arrogance, the future is not ours to know, and soldiered on regardless. That is courage.

  • Oops! This is the link to the trope page: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceIsBad

    I particular meant this part:
    This can often come off as a bit hypocritical, particularly when dealing with speculative fiction, as you get an Anvilicious message of “everything we have so far is good, but we should stop now.”

  • Desiderius

    modernguy,

    “Vox @390 feels like Newton expounding on the intricacies of alchemy to a four year old niece just to make himself feel like all that knowledge about alchemy acquired was worth something. Anything. Please! Let me write an essay about it!”

    Ana is not a four-year-old niece, and her’s is the conventional wisdom. Vox is attempting to speak truth to power, not innocence. The burden rests on you do demonstrate how what he says is untrue (alchemy), if you wish to defend that power.

  • VD

    The typical theme is that some sort of advanced scientific research has Gone Horribly Wrong, creating a monster, causing an impending natural disaster and/or a massive government cover-up.

    Not applied science, but professional modern science. As I said.

    The antagonist (almost always either corporate or military/government scientists — and not hot) refuses to believe that his work could be so badly flawed and/or immoral, or simply doesn’t care about who gets hurt by it, insisting that the research is For Science!!

    Not applied science, but professional modern science. As I said.

    Note that not every work with a Mad Scientist or a threat borne of science falls under this; it’s only the case where Messing With Things You Ought Not To is blamed for the problems.

    Of course, problems usually arise from messing with things one ought not to. Hence the bit about “ought not”. But the entire trope is a misnomer. It’s not about science at all, but rather immoral applications of science. Science is just a tool, it is no more intrinsically moral than a shovel. Presumably even you, Anacaona, would have some qualms about the hypothetical Mad Scientist Dr. Ahmad von Judenhassen researching junk DNA triggers in order to produce an air-transmissible genetic weapon that sterilizes only Jewish women, no matter how grateful for running water you are. Or are you a science extremist who holds that all scientific pursuit of knowledge is an intrinsic good?

    The trope rarely makes a distinction between pure science and applied technology.

    I wonder why that might be….

    Chill out man.

    I am entirely relaxed and more than a little amused.

  • Presumably even you, Anacaona, would have some qualms about the hypothetical Mad Scientist Dr. Ahmad von Judenhassen researching junk DNA triggers in order to produce an air-transmissible genetic weapon that sterilizes only Jewish women, no matter how grateful for running water you are. Or are you a science extremist who holds that all scientific pursuit of knowledge is an intrinsic good?

    How many times had you seen the opposite in mainstream sci-fi?
    This is the write up for the closest to opposite trope http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceHero, there is not even a Science is Good trope…

    Oh no! The city is in danger! This looks like a job… for science!

    A hero who uses science, technology and/or super-science to save the day. A staple of science fiction and an expression of the faith that science will save us rather than doom us.

    This hero is one part Bad Ass Normal, two parts The Smart Guy, with a hint of Wrench Wench and Gadgeteer Genius. They’re defined mostly by being highly technically proficient scientists (often in all fields) and with a sense of adventure and curiosity. Plus, gadgets!

    The Science Hero has become something of a Discredited Trope with the onset of Post Modernism because post-modernism rejected progress for progress’s sake — which is a favorite motivation for a Science Hero — and allowed a resurgence of Science Is Bad, Nature Hero, and Rock Beats Laser.

    It also demanded personal motivations for characters. Classic Science Heroes tended to do their science for the good of society/humanity/the universe/etc. or For Science!, and viewers were expected to be inspired by them. Modern Science Heroes are expected to have a personal or psychological reason for getting into science. Some reasons make the character a Mad Scientist, with all the craziness that implies. It’s good craziness used for a good cause, but we’re not supposed to take that kind of character as a role model! Other reasons allow the pursuit of science to end or be shoved in the background because it is a means to a reachable end or to an end that can be better reached some other way. And, in modern fiction, even a Science Hero can be thrown off track by The Power of Love — and more likely than not, this will be expected to be seen as a good thing…

    For these reasons, it is hard to find new, unambiguous Science Heroes. It’s a pity — we still need to inspire the scientists.

    See also Giving Radio To The Romans. Compare Nature Hero and Badass Bookworm. Contrast Science Is Bad and Mad Scientist. Often a champion of the Enlightenment in works featuring Romanticism Versus Enlightenment.

    Also read the examples of both for every 10 mad scientists there is 1 science hero…. if you are lucky.

  • I am entirely relaxed and more than a little amused.

    Glad to be of service 🙂

  • Just1X

    @Ana

    if all those tropes are getting you down, have you tried

    Iain M Banks’ Culture books – Consider Phlebas

    Neal Asher’s Cormac books – Gridlinked

    They attempt to tell stories in a future where humanity has been vastly surpassed by machine intelligences. One author is Scottish, the other English, so I didn’t know if they’d made it over ‘there’.

    Or, for good old storytelling
    Larry Niven – Ringworld
    Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle – Known Space books (lots of them)

    The reason that I suggest them is that I understand that you are about to suffer long periods with nothing much to do – that’s how early parenthood works, right?

  • Jackie

    Wow, VD, I find the writing of character complexity and ambiguity of “The Wire” to be far superior to that of Dickens. For women, at least.

    Dickens makes his heroines angelically infallible and pretty treacle-y, in my reading experience, almost to the point of caricature. Lucie Manette, Kate Nickleby, Madeline LeBray, Little Nell, Agnes Whitfield, Rose Maylie…

    Is there one that transcends this? Maybe Estella from _Great Expectations_? (Who still has to suffer first by Miss Havisham then by her rotten marriage to the wife-beater Drummle.)

    Anyway, I’m sure you’ve heard the remark attributed to Oscar Wilde: “One would have to have a heart of stone to read the death of little Nell without dissolving into tears…of laughter.” 😉

  • if all those tropes are getting you down, have you tried
    Heh too late the trope had gotten me down for a while…no to mention most sci-fi movies use it and over use it and they are not even good about depicting scientist being at least decently competent *glaringatyouprometheus*

    Iain M Banks’ Culture books – Consider Phlebas

    Neal Asher’s Cormac books – Gridlinked

    They attempt to tell stories in a future where humanity has been vastly surpassed by machine intelligences. One author is Scottish, the other English, so I didn’t know if they’d made it over ‘there’.

    Or, for good old storytelling
    Larry Niven – Ringworld
    Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle – Known Space books (lots of them)

    Thank you but is HUS trying to get me bankrupt with all this books recommendations?! At least my christmas gift list is going to be diverse 😉

    The reason that I suggest them is that I understand that you are about to suffer long periods with nothing much to do – that’s how early parenthood works, right

    As far as I can remember yes. But I’m already in “baby’s sleeping pattern” mode. I wake up every two to three hours and need like an hour to go back to sleep so I’m writing between those. I plan to finish my trilogy soon using this pattern but I will still have time for books and movies, so thanks I will be probably reading them at some point.
    Thanks *kissinthecheek*

  • VD

    Wow, VD, I find the writing of character complexity and ambiguity of “The Wire” to be far superior to that of Dickens. For women, at least.

    If people are still watching The Wire and feeling that it speaks to them in 170 years from now, I will happily concede you the point. I personally doubt it will even last 25 years. But first, The Wire is the apex of television. Dickens is very good, but he was a pop serial writer and wouldn’t even make my personal top twenty. Do the characters of The Wire hold up against those of Dostoevsky? Does its insight into humanity compare favorably with Tolstoy’s? Is it as influential and imaginative as Tolkien’s works? As intellectually brilliant as Eco or Calvino? I don’t think so, but perhaps you would disagree.

    Second, Dickens is often underrated by the shallow and superficial. I will answer your appeal to Wilde… and if you like, James and Woolf as well, with the weightier authority of Chesterton, Orwell, and Tolstoy. Wilde was certainly amusing, but he was a negligible, superficial writer reliant upon quickness rather than depth. His humor is essentially that of Piers Anthony and the early Terry Pratchett, only more acerbic and adroit.

    Third, just to be clear, I’m not the Dickens buff. I was merely commenting that it was astonishing to discover that a party animal who regularly went clubbing in little more than a bra and thong and looked like a slutty Kate Beckinsale was a serious Dickens aficionado. Usually, the rooms and apartments of women I visited had little more reading material than textbooks or the occasional Shape magazine.

    That’s an idea for girls who want to appeal to intelligent men, actually. Acquire a library of 200-300 books and read at least three of the more respectable books for discussion purposes. And, while you’re at it, watch The Wire and Breaking Bad in case you run into Zach. Just make up some bullshit about either show being a metaphor for Dante’s Purgatorio; even people who adore Inferno seldom read that so no one will ever call you on it.

  • Iggles

    @ J:

    It’s hard to be completely outcome independent if you care about someone, but I think a relationship thrives when both parties love each other but don’t necessarily need each other. I’d do OK with my husband and he’d do OK without me, but our lives are just so much better together.

    I agree with this.

    My boyfriend and I were talking about this awhile back. He’s likes that I am independent, in the sense that I can take care of myself and can survive on my own just fine. We’re together because we want to be, and having each other makes our lives so much richer. I like talking with him about how our day went and sharing my life with him in general 😀

  • Tom

    They don’t know what girls are like when allowed to develop and mature naturally, without social engineering.
    ________
    Makes me wonder what women would be like with the pill and without the shaming…oh wait….

  • Plain Jane

    “This is not necessarily true. Two generations of women have been raised to suppress femininity and embrace masculine behaviors. They don’t know what girls are like when allowed to develop and mature naturally, without social engineering.”

    So you believe nurture trumps nature?

    • So you believe nurture trumps nature?

      Yes, but nature also trumps nurture. It’s difficult to know when either will prevail.

  • Iggles

    @ Zach:

    The issue is that it’s not just that “elite” 10% that witty, teasing, charismatic game works on. It’s a far, far larger proportion of women. I knew plenty of girls in college who were extremely intelligent, who could write dissertations on Jane Austen, who often were the most insightful contributors in class, but when they were around guys, they ate up alpha game like skittles. And that held true very, very broadly.

    Eh, I think there’s more than a little “confirmation bias” creeping in here..

    Also, these “extremely intelligent” girls would NOT be turned off by the analysis of Breaking Bad. They would like jump right in with an equally astute response!

    I think your fishing in the shallow in the pool. You can find a smarter type of girl that can keep your interested, but you need to change your approach and/or your venue. The next time you going to some gala don’t like with “cocky/funny” game. That sets the stage for a superficial interaction. Instead, look a woman in the eyes and try to connect with her on a human level. All you need for an opening is “Hi, my name is Zach”.

  • Iggles

    Ugh, typos galore… I meant to say:

    I think your fishing in the shallow end of the pool. You can find a smarter type of girl that can keep your interest, but you need to change your approach and/or your venue.

    The next time you going to some gala don’t lead with “cocky/funny” game. That sets the stage for a superficial interaction. Instead, look a woman in the eyes and try to connect with her on a human level. All you need for an opening is “Hi, my name is Zach”.

  • Bushtracker

    @ Marellus
    Afrikaans sprekendes duik op in die snaakste plekke. Howzit, bra.

    @Plain Jane
    Not really. It would hardly be fair for the government to spend public funds boosting middle class people back up to the two car, four bed, two bath past when millions are living in shacks. Political impossibility if nothing else. It’s tough being a unemployed professional from a middle class clan but if you’re honest you have to admit that as bad as you feel that suck its all relative. I can see people sleeping in boxes from my window. There are plenty of things IMO the people who control the country (government isnt the only role player here) could do improve the situation for everybody there but it would just be too way off topic for this blog.
    I just thought it might be of interest to share some observations regarding the impact prolonged economic dislocation and insecurity seems to have on the dating lives. The “end of men” talk on this blog seemed to describe what I recalled as a younger guy but the point was, it didn’t come right, things just kept on getting more and more extreme somehow. It’s hard to make personal connections with anybody when the income disparity gets wide enough, when its not “I can’t take ladies to nice restaurants”, it’s the point where there you can’t even meet up for coffee unless she’s buying for you. When you have no food in the house you don’t really worry much about that stuff at all.
    If you’re a the first generation of women to even hear of second gen feminism like my female peers are and you’ve been simultaneously raised in conservative nuke-gen families it can cause a bit of turmoil and anxiety obviously. Toss in aforementioned economic dislocation and well, they aren’t coping. To be fair, the shocking state of most of the male stock would make any woman think prospects for happy ever after are pretty dark. Reality just can’t live up to expectations anymore. So, from a country clearly a ways further down the path of mass impoverishment and feudalisation I recommend you USAans sort that out because, take it from me, a messed up economy can crush your love live dead.

  • Sai

    @Bushtracker
    “So, from a country clearly a ways further down the path of mass  impoverishment and feudalisation I recommend you USAans sort that out because, take it from me, a messed up economy can crush your love live dead.”
    I believe you. I think everybody here does.

  • Plain Jane

    Bushtracker, work out, gain some brawn, do manly stuff like bush tracking (heh) and ask a woman out for an adventure edible herb and exotic fruit gathering in the jungle. I don’t know about South African women, but I’m part South Asian (some relatives in South Africa actually!) and I’d LOVE that.

    One guy in the below video says its precisely why European and American female sex tourists go to the Caribbean, because they want “jungly” men who know how to navigate nature, and not “softy” guys like the office drones back home. I’d have to agree. Ever see the old Tarzan and Jane movies? HOT.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtU3m2M1Ivs

  • Plain Jane

    “A reader tipped me off this week that Yohami was pouting again about his HUS experience, and that she thought he might want to come back. I went to his blog to read the relevant post. I read it five times and could make no sense of it whatsoever. I can’t decide whether he just slings bullshit and laughs his ass of at anyone who takes him seriously, or whether he actually believes this stuff. Sadly, I suspect it’s the latter.”

    Susan, remember that Yohami is Brazilian ( i think) and English is not his first languages so he’ll come off a bit odd to us just for that alone. Secondly, he’s an artist and pretty much an ethereal airy fairy type. I’ve also found, and any Latinos can feel free to correct if I’m way off base, that Latinos are a more emotive and “feeling” bunch than many other demographics. This causes them to come across perhaps somewhat scattered.

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “Wow, VD, I find the writing of character complexity and ambiguity of “The Wire” to be far superior to that of Dickens.”

    That was a palpable hit. Nice one.

    Timelessness is not the only valid criteria of great literature. Some speaks powerfully across the ages, some powerfully across cultural divides within only one age.

    I’m more into movies than TV, but those are the media in which our best literature is currently crafted. The following hit the topics we’ve been discussing often with more insight than we muster:

    Shame (not just the main character is shamed)
    Bridesmaids
    Young Adult
    Safety Not Guaranteed
    Elegy (another Ben Kingsley gem)

    Other suggestions welcome.

  • Plain Jane

    “Timelessness is not the only valid criteria of great literature. Some speaks powerfully across the ages, some powerfully across cultural divides within only one age. ”

    Ramayana is a great example of that, originating in South Asia, making its way in traditional and popular culture through South East Asia with anime renditions in Far East Japan and now a homegrown New York Jew brings us this;

    http://www.youtube.com/movie?v=1QkYOqI3jSM&feature=mv_sr

  • Jackie

    @Des , PJ (Merciful Heaven, forgive me!)
    “That was a palpable hit. Nice one.”

    I appreciate the sincerity but I doubt the veracity! 😉 I hope we can disagree without being disagreeable or antagonistic. I would like to learn and improve, if I can.

    VD appears to have borrowed his sources of critique from Wikipedia’s opening section on Dickens, as he remarks he is not a Dickens buff. I would be genuinely charmed and interested to learn more from anyone who has a literature background.

    Actually, I wonder if the modern equivalent of Dickens (who was big into serializing his works, one chapter at a time) would be the graphic novel/comic book? They seem to have the same populist bent and accessibility, I think.

    (Also: I think I find Dickens’ portrayal of women kind of fascinating, as his heroines’ marriages consist of uncomplicated devotion. His own was decidedly not.

    Dickens separated from his wife in his 40s, as he took up with a teenage actress. Apparently he had many beliefs in line with MRAs on the role of women, as well! Wouldn’t it be fascinating to see what Dickens would be like if blogging today?)

    God have mercy on my soul, as this will involve PJ’s remark.

    I read a really great essay on why Dickens is the favorite author of John Irving (who could be kind of seen as a latter-day Dickens, considering the size and scope of some of his novels!). And, in that same essay he discussed a trip through India where he discovered the parallels of the Sanskrit epic _Mahabarata_, the brother epic of the _Ramayana_, with the plot structures and feverish appreciation of the work of CD.

    This is already way too long– sorry, Des! But I would love to discuss issues raised by the films you mentioned. There are SO MANY that could be related to the issues raised at HUS! Especially the movie “Shame.” I think that film and television are the populist medium for our current age, the way that serialized chapter-books were in the 19th century.

    I still am hoping for a HUS Cinema Club. 🙂

  • modernguy

    If you imagine yourself a deep thinker yearning for truth and whatnot, read books. Breaking Bad is deep thinking for SWPLs – something that makes you feel sophisticated and deep without any real consequence. Deep thoughts ask you to change, TV doesn’t do that.

    The real irony of course is that you can’t find girls who even want to think about Breaking Bad, let alone anything more important.

  • INTJ

    @ modernguy

    If you imagine yourself a deep thinker yearning for truth and whatnot, read books. Breaking Bad is deep thinking for SWPLs – something that makes you feel sophisticated and deep without any real consequence. Deep thoughts ask you to change, TV doesn’t do that.

    Lol that is so true.

  • Desiderius

    modernguy,

    “Deep thoughts ask you to change, TV doesn’t do that.”

    When Susan mentioned that the main character turned off his wife, it changed my take on game and where I needed to adjust my approach (more genuine dad, with balls, less cad), and I haven’t even watched the show. I was breaking pretty bad there myself for awhile. Susan thought I was playing. I wasn’t.

    Art with the courage to depict life honestly will change lives. We don’t get to perceive ourselves directly.

    • @Desiderius

      Art with the courage to depict life honestly will change lives. We don’t get to perceive ourselves directly.

      I agree with this. Sex and the City changed many lives for the worse. Other shows have the power to inspire. Lena Dunham’s Girls give us great material for honest discussion.

      Art, and even popular culture, are a great entree into more complicated subjects. Especially since TV just gets better and better.

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “I appreciate the sincerity but I doubt the veracity! 😉 I hope we can disagree without being disagreeable or antagonistic.”

    I little http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agon doesn’t have to bring agony.

    “VD appears to have borrowed his sources of critique from Wikipedia’s opening section on Dickens”

    Unless one twists the knife.

    We’re a devious species. The trick is turning that deviousness to productive purposes. That does require calling each other out. Also forgiveness and grace.

    “And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him; and they wept.”

    – Genesis 33:4

  • Desiderius

    “Moreover he’s Latino and other Latinos can correct me if I’m off base here, but I think they are a more emotive and “feeling” type demographic which can cause them to appear scattered or not grounded.”

    Well, according to Myers-Briggs, I’m an INFP, so there you go. Borderline E/I and T/F though, so sometimes I guess I can play well with others/make some sense. Also moving from P to J with age.

    My guess is that Roissy fits that profile as well.

  • VD

    VD appears to have borrowed his sources of critique from Wikipedia’s opening section on Dickens, as he remarks he is not a Dickens buff.

    Cited, not borrowed. Other than Wilde’s famous quote, I had no idea what other authors thought of him. I wasn’t surprised to see Chesterton liked him, Tolstoy made sense too, but Orwell was a surprise. I’ve only read ten or twelve of his novels myself… enough to be able to discuss them with the Dickens buff, anyhow.

  • Mike C

    I’m more into movies than TV, but those are the media in which our best literature is currently crafted. The following hit the topics we’ve been discussing often with more insight than we muster:

    Shame (not just the main character is shamed)
    Bridesmaids
    Young Adult
    Safety Not Guaranteed
    Elegy (another Ben Kingsley gem)

    Other suggestions welcome.

    Swingers (1996)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingers_%281996_film%29

    AFAIK, this was the first movie to really depict “Game” and draw the distinction (especially in results) between the guy with cocky swagger and the supplicating nice guy. It is interesting to me that the movie was released in 1996 so it actually predates the Internet/Usenet community that sprang up in the late 90s to study and implement Game concepts. I think there were always guys who kind of knew the “truths” about what women really respond to/are attracted to.

    What’s funny/ironic to me is I first saw the movie years before I really came across/studied Game, but I really didn’t “get it” after watching the movie which just goes to show how powerful it is to have been raised in a particular culture at a particular time. Desi, guys like you and me who are late 30s/early 40s, maybe even down to low to mid 30s were really raised at the apex of the meme of being the supplicating nice guy. My guess is guys who are teenagers today have a completely different understanding growing up in this time.

  • Jackie

    VD,

    I am glad to be corrected; can you explain, please? I learned that citation is source attribution, but I am not seeing how you cited Wiki in your previous comment. Would you mind clarifying? Not trying to be a bother, honestly! Thank you for considering my request!

    (BTW, I wasn’t surprised at all about Woolf and agree about Orwell. I am actually reading _Bleak House_ right now on my sister’s suggestion, after a discussion of disgust with the legal system! 😉 )

    Regardless, I am glad you were able to have a convo on Dickens with your friend! People can surprise you, sometimes.

  • Jackie

    @Des

    Duly noted. 🙂

    BTW, I think you’re needed at the end of the Hot n Mean thread, as your presence was requested by Mr. INTJ. 🙂

  • Mike C

    Zach,

    I am going to cosign Hope’s comment, VD’s comment, and Jason773’s comment.

    I think VD is spot on with intellectual curiousity vis a vis ***most women***

    ***Standard disclaimer of NAWALT applies***

    Intellectual curiousity is essentially an internal self-directed item. You spend time alone reading, studying, thinking. In a sense, it is the direct opposite of socializing. So to some extent you wanting the outgoing, socializing woman with intellectual curiousity is wanting the square circle. I understand you may have both attributes but I suspect for the most part people who are really intellectually curious AND ALSO really enjoy going out and socializing are a very, very small minority.

    Hope nailed it that you want a unicorn for a LTR. I can’t help but think of the 367 point checklists many women have when you describe what you want out of an LTR. I think if you genuinely want a meaningful LTR with a real connection as opposed to bar booty calls you’ll have to prioritize the must haves from the it would nice. I think you could roughly segment things this way:

    1. Physical attractiveness
    2. Feminine personality and demeanor – Sweet, loyal and devoted, emotionally supportive, emotionally stable, low drama
    3. Intelligent and intellectually curious

    Personally, I think the chances of getting a 8-10 in each of those three categories is remote…probably close to winning the lotto. After the failure of my first marriage, I knew #2 was the most important by far, with a certain cutoff level on #1. IMHO, it is going to be tough enough just to find 1 and 2 together given that physically attractive women in our culture often grow up to be princess bitches. Once you throw 3 into the filter as well along with 1 and 2….well….good luck.

  • Zach

    @Iggles

    FYI, I went to Penn. That’s my frame of reference. Pretty much every single girl there was “extremely intelligent”, whether they were in sororities or not (in fact, the sorority GPA as a whole was higher than non-Greek GPA). So if you’re saying my confirmation bias is from Ivy League-women, then yes, I do have one.

    Re: “Hi, my name is Zach”. I use that intro line all the time. It you convey it with enough confidence, “Hi” can be a very effective intro. There are plenty of times when I don’t have some sort of witty remark to open with, and in those cases “Hi, my name is Zach” is generally what I use.

    Another real-life example. I’m currently on a business trip on the West Coast. Over Labor Day weekend, I was at a 3-day engagement party for one of my oldest friends. His fiance’s best friends from college were there, and they all went to Harvard. They were not in sororities, were not particularly interested in parties, and were generally more introverted than most girls I know. One of the girls is a programmer at Microsoft (STEM), and lives in Seattle. I flirted with her a bit throughout the weekend, pretty much exclusively the cocky/funny variety. She found out I was going to be in Seattle this week for work, and volunteered me her number, and told me to call her when I was there. She knows I’m going to be in town for 24 hours, and said she’d be available whenever I was checked into my hotel (I land at 8 PM). She essentially invited me for a one-night stand across the country. This is a girl who is extremely bright, STEM, and not a party/sorority girl. It’s experiences like these (and quite a few others) that lead me to be extremely skeptical of the claim that “cocky/funny” game doesn’t work on these types of girls, or even that it isn’t the best way to get to them. The only distinction I’d be willing to support would be between introverted/extroverted girls. I’d buy that it works better on the more extroverted ones, and less on the introverted ones. However, I’m not going to date an introverted girl (I’d be bored out of my mind by a quiet, shy woman).

    • @Zach

      She knows I’m going to be in town for 24 hours, and said she’d be available whenever I was checked into my hotel (I land at 8 PM). She essentially invited me for a one-night stand across the country. This is a girl who is extremely bright, STEM, and not a party/sorority girl

      So how did that go? Was she just interested in a ONS? Or – if this is supposed to happen later this week, then keep us posted. I’m curious to see if you had the right impression.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    “Art, and even popular culture, are a great entree into more complicated subjects. Especially since TV just gets better and better.”

    Hear, hear! (Or is is Here, Here? I can never remember!) I am going to start Breaking Bad after reading about it here. 🙂

    *raises bowl of Honey Nut Cheerios*
    *whistles The Farmer In The Dell, in the style of Omar*
    :mrgreen:

    • @Jackie

      The Wire is some of the best TV ever made. I loved every minute of it. My favorite line from five seasons: “The king stay the king.” (DeAngelo teaching chess.)

      My husband tried to get me to watch Breaking Bad for four years. Finally, this summer I agree to watch the pilot. What followed was a summer marathon of the show, which brought me up to date. And guess what? I’ve started back at the pilot – I want to see the whole thing again. It’s that good.

      Watching the pilot again, I picked up on several things I’d missed the first time around. And the foreshadowing is incredible.

      Keep us posted on what you think of it!

  • Mike C

    She knows I’m going to be in town for 24 hours, and said she’d be available whenever I was checked into my hotel (I land at 8 PM). She essentially invited me for a one-night stand across the country. This is a girl who is extremely bright, STEM, and not a party/sorority girl. It’s experiences like these (and quite a few others) that lead me to be extremely skeptical of the claim that “cocky/funny” game doesn’t work on these types of girls, or even that it isn’t the best way to get to them.

    She must be a 20%er 🙂

  • Zach

    @Mike C

    I agree with you a bit on this. It’s definitely a hard thing to find. Here’s my problem though. I just (in May) ended a 7-month relationship with a girl who scored 8+ on both 1 and 2 (I’d say closer to a 10 on 2). I ended it because I wasn’t in love with her, nor was I going to be, and was losing interest. When I thought about it, it all came down to no 3.5 (intellectual curiosity, she was intelligent). So if I already had that and it wasn’t enough for me, what am I supposed to take from that? I’d say next step would be to try and find a girl with 3 and 1 maybe, and less of 2? I actually have found a girl or two like that, but it just hasn’t quite worked out (last two girls I’ve been involved with, ie more than 3-4 dates, were 1 and 3). We’ll see how that goes.

  • Desiderius

    MikeC,

    “Desi, guys like you and me who are late 30s/early 40s, maybe even down to low to mid 30s were really raised at the apex of the meme of being the supplicating nice guy. My guess is guys who are teenagers today have a completely different understanding growing up in this time.”

    I can confirm your guess based on observing the behavior of around a couple thousand male teens these last two years as a substitute teacher. It’s a Brave New World on the way.

    And I think supplicating beta is overstating the case, although there were guys who took it too far. There was just more of a realization that a healthy relationship required shared sacrifice and mutual encouragement, so when you signaled those capacities from a position of some strength/potential, you were rewarded. Susan likes to say it only takes one, and I had more than one outstanding opportunity that I failed to take advantage of.

  • Mike C

    So if I already had that and it wasn’t enough for me, what am I supposed to take from that?

    IDK…I think you said were 24 or 25…..I think you’ll have to live out the next 3-5 years of your life, and maybe you’ll grow to realize your expectations are unrealistic and be able to accept that….or maybe you’ll find that girl that hits all the points perfectly. I’m 38 now…when I was 22 I thought I’d be a millionaire by this age. I’m not. I think as you get older, you maybe start to recalibrate some of the expectations of your earliest youth and you learn to be happy with where you are and what you have. I also think at a certain age you’ll put some value on simply the idea of “companionship” which you probably put very little value on today. I know I didn’t at 25. Right now, you are highly focused on that checklist of attributes. That may change…and the only thing that may change it is the passage of time and life experience shifting your priorities.

    I’d say next step would be to try and find a girl with 3 and 1 maybe, and less of 2?

    I don’t know. Maybe, but to me the big contradiction is the intellectual curiousity thing coupled with extroversion/socializing.

    Anyways, good luck. And remember, 99% of guys would love to have your “problems”.

  • Desiderius

    “One of the girls is a programmer at Microsoft (STEM), and lives in Seattle. I flirted with her a bit throughout the weekend, pretty much exclusively the cocky/funny variety. She found out I was going to be in Seattle this week for work, and volunteered me her number, and told me to call her when I was there. She knows I’m going to be in town for 24 hours, and said she’d be available whenever I was checked into my hotel (I land at 8 PM). She essentially invited me for a one-night stand across the country. This is a girl who is extremely bright, STEM, and not a party/sorority girl. It’s experiences like these (and quite a few others) that lead me to be extremely skeptical of the claim that “cocky/funny” game doesn’t work on these types of girls, or even that it isn’t the best way to get to them.”

    I don’t know if the message will ever get through. Older* women are just so used to filtering things through their own experiences that it is extremely difficult for them to relate to other generations who operate on other norms. I’m having the same problem with my (otherwise great) mom.

    Susan, this is the norm they’ve been taught to follow. These are women who got where they are by following the norms they’ve been taught in the academic/career realm to a T. Why would they deviate in the dating/relationship realm? The non-judgmentalism experiment didn’t work. Someone else stepped in and substituted their (sex-positive) judgments for the different, healthier ones the non-judgers refrained from making.

    Young women and men may slowly be figuring this out on their own, but they need all the help they can get.

    * – yes, we also have some younger commenters, and they’re great women, and for all I know they’re drop dead gorgeous and just the rare outliers, but there is a problem at the top of the SMP, and as Zach said these are not air-headed bimbos we’re talking about. I see the same thing among very capable and otherwise appealing women 27-35.

  • Desiderius

    These threads always devolve into how the guy can change his approach based on what attracted Susan/J/Hope, etc… I know that’s the focus of the blog, as opposed to changing the whole SMP, so apologies from wandering from that reservation on the last comment, but I do worry about how much maintaining that narrow focus blinds us from the realities of Zach’s SMP. There are still a lot of Susans/Js/Hopes out there out there, but because of the change in norms, their expectations are a lot different.

    • These threads always devolve into how the guy can change his approach based on what attracted Susan/J/Hope, etc…

      I write an informational post aimed primarily at women. It’s not of the editorial variety, as the content speaks for itself. Promiscuity is pathological in both sexes.

      This has enormous implications for the SMP, which includes Zach’s SMP. In fact, Zach recognizes himself in some of the descriptions and expresses his concern that he is changing as a result of his promiscuous behavior. (You will recall an earlier post dedicated to Zach’s concern that his “emotional prudery” was the result of having been with too many women.)

      Zach’s checklist has already been commented on here, so I won’t belabor the point. Suffice to say that Zach is looking for a smart, feminine, beautiful woman in bars. Not only that, he only wants to date a woman who is down to spend 3-4 nights a week out drinking. Yet on her “off” night she should be reading sociological treatises. This isn’t a case of a superwoman who doesn’t exist – this is a description of deeply incongruent behavior that sounds extremely male to me.

      Anyway, Zach is unhappy in the SMP, and it’s women’s fault. It’s women who have created men like Zach, men who have sex with women they’re not even attracted to because “my dick wants it.” Zach can keep doing exactly what he’s doing, and getting the same results. Or he can change his strategy. It’s immaterial to me what he does, but I sure don’t see any useful advice coming from the guys.

      Here’s advice from Susan to Zach:

      Stop thinking of yourself as a Master of the Universe.
      Stop behaving like a sexual jackal.
      Stop slinging bullshit at women.

      You are using a very effective strategy for attracting highly narcissistic, sexually promiscuous, phony women. Do you see why?

      My advice is to attract a good woman by being a good man.

      I know the men here will all say I’m being hard on Zach. “Women get the men they deserve, blah blah blah.”

      What we’ve got here is an unhappy manwhore, and he’s far from alone.

      Think about it.

  • Desiderius

    Doesn’t mean cocky/funny alone is the only way. But wooing them the way Susan was wooed is unlikely to be effective either.

  • Mike C

    These threads always devolve into how the guy can change his approach based on what attracted Susan/J/Hope, etc

    Well…I’m going to try to not go there anymore. For men (male readers) I think it is important to get a variety of perspectives, and then at the end of the day one has to decide if that is likely to be a fruitful approach. For lack of better way to describe this, I do think there are “quality” women who may be higher on the hypergamy spectrum/requiring some cocky/teasing type behavior like what Zach ran on Microsoft STEM girl. Alternatively, a guy who has none of that can “stay himself” and probably find some quality women there as well although it may be more of an uphill battle. Really, what I’ve concluded though is a guy has to figure out on his own what his MO is going to be and not rely on women to give him the answer to the multiple choice test.

  • Mike C

    She knows I’m going to be in town for 24 hours, and said she’d be available whenever I was checked into my hotel (I land at 8 PM). She essentially invited me for a one-night stand across the country. This is a girl who is extremely bright, STEM, and not a party/sorority girl.
    ………..
    but I do worry about how much maintaining that narrow focus blinds us from the realities of Zach’s SMP. There are still a lot of Susans/Js/Hopes out there out there, but because of the change in norms, their expectations are a lot different.

    Joking aside about this girl being a 20%er, because she very might not be…and I’m presuming that Zach is correct in his assessment of the situation but there are a couple of things I think are going on here. I highly doubt this girl makes a habit of offering one night stands to every Joe Blow who crosses her path. I think this type of situation is pretty unique to when a woman crosses the path with a very high SMV male like Zach. I do think many women apply different sexual standards to very high SMV men versus mediocre SMV men, and I think Susan may be right that it is to “win the guy for a relationship”. This is perhaps the greatest misconception that some young women are operating from that to her credit Susan has worked on addressing and I think alot more work has to take place. You can’t win the guy over for a relationship by putting out quickly. The fact is it is actually counterproductive because you get thrown on the other ladder or FWB box. It really is the parallel to a guy being super sweet, and attentive, and nice to a girl to “win her over” where to her she has done nothing to deserve it. So this girl thinks she is being special by basically saying “I’m here for the taking at your convenience” not realizing it isn’t going to get here what she wants. And then again, maybe she just wants to fuck a hot guy. 🙂

  • Mike C

    And FWIW, as a side point, I think it is absolutely great that Zach and Jason post here regularly. It really is the only connection to on the ground reality. I’ve been out of the game since 2006. Many of the commenters here are in relationships or married so really to some extent ALL OF US are just talking out of our asses with theoretical speculation. Many of the regular male commenters really aren’t active out there so to speak. Zach and Jason are both extroverts approaching and interacting with large numbers of women on a regular basis so they are getting real-time feedback. I hope both will continue to bring back individual cases repeatedly. There was a reason Harvard used the case study method of individual businesses to understand broader business concepts.

  • Plain Jane

    “Maybe, but to me the big contradiction is the intellectual curiousity thing coupled with extroversion/socializing.”

    Is extroversion/socializing #4? Why would that necessarily be viewed as a plus?

    “It’s experiences like these (and quite a few others) that lead me to be extremely skeptical of the claim that “cocky/funny” game doesn’t work on these types of girls, or even that it isn’t the best way to get to them.”

    Is there an assumption that smart or professional women who aren’t partiers wouldn’t be open to a casual fling if their type of casual man becomes available?

    What would prevent them from not engaging such an oppurtunity?

  • Especially since TV just gets better and better.

    Really? I used to watch a lot of TV but it dissapointed me. The best shows get cancelled, the decent shows get over extended and full of fillers and messy plotlines to keep the DRAMA! for drama’s sake, and the shows that are the “quality” ones worship promiscuity, and terrible values I don’t identify with. I don’t even have cable, we are thinking on getting for the kid so we can watch Smithsonian channel, Discovery, travel network but actual series? I don’t think.
    Just wanted to comment on that.

    • @Anacaona

      I don’t even have cable, we are thinking on getting for the kid so we can watch Smithsonian channel, Discovery, travel network but actual series?

      Almost every good show is on cable. There have been a couple of exceptions – Friday Night Lights comes to mind. Shows I currently watch on cable that I love:

      Breaking Bad
      Girls
      Game of Thrones
      Mad Men

      In the past:

      The Wire
      The Sopranos

  • Desiderius

    MikeC,

    Wait, are you saying there’s somewhere else I could talk out of than my ass? Who knew?

    Point taken. Could definitely use a lot more Zachs and Jasons, especially some female versions.

  • Plain Jane

    “I don’t even have cable, we are thinking on getting for the kid so we can watch Smithsonian channel, Discovery, travel network but actual series? I don’t think.”

    You’ll be disappointed in Discovery and Travel too. All of the more “intelligent” show and networks are now catering to the lowest common denominator (or IQ), by using ADHD editing techniques, very loud and obnoxious background music, and presenting with more aggressiveness to give their shows “edge”.

    How the Manosphere says television is “feminized” is beyond me. What I see is in your face aggressiveness, even on shows that are supposed to cater to intellect.

  • Mike C

    Point taken. Could definitely use a lot more Zachs and Jasons, especially some female versions.

    Ha. I’d pay to hear some actual female field reports….from say the young women who actually do go to bars on the weekend to potentially meet guys. To hear about guys that approach them and why they give guy A their number and tell guy B to take a hike. To describe first and second dates and why they continue on with some. And just to get their overall impression of various guys they meet. It would be invaluable information. We’ve gotten a small bit of that from time to time….there was the (in)famous Casey thread, and she took a bit of a beating but it was enlightening:

    https://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/09/20/relationshipstrategies/i-found-a-great-beta-guy-but-hes-ruining-his-own-game/

    • @Mike C

      I’d pay to hear some actual female field reports….from say the young women who actually do go to bars on the weekend to potentially meet guys.

      We have heard from several women like this – Courtley comes to mind as a recent example. She hasn’t been seen since the Hot and Mean thread – I wonder why.

      Might I suggest that the nature of male commentary here does not induce women to share their experiences? The ones who don’t get verbally slaughtered find themselves being used as a Red Pill hammer, proof of women’s “real nature.”

  • Ha. I’d pay to hear some actual female field reports….from say the young women who actually do go to bars on the weekend to potentially meet guys. To hear about guys that approach them and why they give guy A their number and tell guy B to take a hike. To describe first and second dates and why they continue on with some. And just to get their overall impression of various guys they meet. It would be invaluable information.

    That would be a great reality show for HUS TV. 🙂
    We follow the girls with cameras and then have them explain. Then the males will try to translate what the heck does she mean (100 dollars say that males diagnosis will be “Not enough Alpha”) and we females do the same (I’m sure you will have one different opinion for every woman here, including “she was just a bitch”) then we compare. It will be a success we could debate gender differences for hours and not reach absolutely any conclusion 😀

  • Sai

    “It really is the parallel to a guy being super sweet, and attentive, and nice to a girl to “win her over” where to her she has done nothing to deserve it.”
    You know, I would like to see this in action. Does it come off as creepy, or just annoying?

  • VD

    I know the men here will all say I’m being hard on Zach.

    I don’t think you are being hard on him at all. But he’s not jaded yet, he’s only begun the process, and so he’s probably not going to abandon the Great Hunt until he wakes up one morning a year or two from now and realizes that he’s actually unhappier living life going from one girl to the next than he is focusing on other aspects of his life. He just needs to grow up and get past his Feed the Penis stage… and he’s introspective enough that I’m confident he will in time.

    The most perfect woman isn’t enough for a man who doesn’t love her. And the lover often finds it hard to see the real flaws in his beloved. It is frustrating for us, in this age of scientism and material reductionism, to be unable to boil it all down to a formula. But human behavior is more of an art than a science and human emotion, by definition, is not rational. We can observe the patterns, we can even utilize them, but we can’t control them.

  • Just1X

    @Ana

    Wouldn’t netflix (or some such) be a cheaper alternative, with low commitment required. Even in the behind-the-times UK we have Breaking Bad series 1-4

  • Thrasymachus

    Zach:

    I cosign Mike C’s comments. You might want to take at look at the “attraction triangle” – the game equivalent of the engineer’s project triangle:

    http://themodernsavage.com/2010/03/16/attraction-triangle-game-theory/

    http://themodernsavage.com/2010/03/25/preferred-signs-of-attraction-in-men-and-women/

    The basic idea is that when selecting a partner for an LTR you need to prioritize among three qualities – intelligence, attractiveness and emotional stability. Pick two out of three. It’s EXTREMELY unlikely that you will ever meet anyone who is in the 8-10 range on all of these – and if you do he or she might well be in a committed relationship with someone else. Interestingly enough, the (admittedly non-random) survey showed that for men the most popular combination by far was attractiveness and emotional stability, followed by attractiveness and intelligence, with intelligence and emotional stability bringing up the rear. For women these preferences were exactly reversed – intelligence and emotional stability was the overwhelming first choice, then intelligence and attractiveness, with attractiveness and emotional stability a distant third.

    Moreover, if in addition to these qualities you want a partner who is a party-going extrovert but is also intellectually curious and not just intelligent – well, good luck with your search. You’ll need it.

  • Plain Jane

    ” It’s EXTREMELY unlikely that you will ever meet anyone who is in the 8-10 range on all of these – and if you do he or she might well be in a committed relationship with someone else. ”

    A lot of people would get insecure having a partner like that. Envious of their great fortune of being almost perfect, which might kick the relationship into competition mode, and of course vigilant for poachers, which might drive the almost perfect partner crazy.

  • VD

    I am glad to be corrected; can you explain, please? I learned that citation is source attribution, but I am not seeing how you cited Wiki in your previous comment. Would you mind clarifying? Not trying to be a bother, honestly! Thank you for considering my request!

    Sure. A citation is a noun that describes a form of source attribution. To cite is a verb that simply means to quote, to refer to as an example, to refer to as evidence, or to recall. Example: He cited many instances of abuse of power. .(1) The noun is a subset of the verb; the concepts are related but not synonymous. I did not provide a citation when I cited the examples of the six authors.

    However, since the information I referred to as an example came from Wikipedia, it would have been more precise to say that “I cited the examples of six authors, whose various opinions concerning Dickens I found listed on Wikipedia” instead of “I cited Wikipedia”. That would have been pedantic, if not pretentious, and it wasn’t my intention to lead anyone to believe that I am some sort of lunatic Dickens fanatic who keeps track of who likes the man’s work and who doesn’t. But I do apologize if my imprecision led to any confusion and I am certainly willing to strive for greater degree of precision in the future.

    (Just kidding, Susan. I don’t actually intend to footnote my comments here.)

    (1) These definitions of “cite” are attributed to the sources Dictionary.com and the online Oxford English Dictionary….

  • I’ll mildly dissent from the majority opinion here and put forth the view that dissatisfaction with casual sex may be symptomatic of larger existential boredom rather than a sign that a cathartic LTR is needed.

    I think one could view the SMP as a kind of video game with different levels of difficulty. The levels may demand new or improved skillsets in order to progress to satisfying levels of play, but it is the pursuit of challenging goals that is the source of happiness, not the final destinations themselves.

    Dissatisfaction with one level may mean that it has become boring and repetitive—the challenges and successes that once were inspiring may mean little to you now. But there may be a way to move forward by seeing higher levels of play available and to use these as motivations for accelerating a self-development process.

    Yes, of course, being tired of casual sex could mean that it is time to exit the game and settle down into a monogamous LTR, but it could also mean that the casual sex is no longer enough to cover for other unfulfilled psychic needs and that it is time to do something really dramatic (and perhaps risky) in terms of personal achievement pursuits. If sexual novelty is boring you, I don’t know that this necessarily means that monogamous sex with one person—perhaps forever—is going to prove to be the dominant logic in terms of a prescription.

    Here is how I look at it, and this is admittedly a fairly self-absorbed, borderline-narcissistic POV: a man has his “avatar”, to use a popular fashionista term, which represents his public, physical presentation; he has his “behavior”, which represents his interpersonal style or way of relating to other people; and he has his “CV”, which loosely represents his true background and capabilities.

    You can push the avatar and the behavioral correlates until you have maxed out a certain level of play, but then it may be necessary to actually make a serious investment in one’s own CV—to do a climb in the Himalayas or dive the Andrea Doria or complete an Ironman; to pursue a tough and prestigious graduate degree; to take a year off, grow a beard, and backpack through SE Asia; to join the Foreign Legion; whatever. It just needs to be something Big, something that most people wouldn’t even attempt, something that will take a lot of time and commitment in order to achieve it.

    Many Game coaches stress the avatar/behavioral stuff because these are normally low-hanging fruit and promise quick results when you start with a novice (although these coaches may at least pay lip service to inner game or personal development). I think Zach and Jason are young, bright guys and they should springboard off of current SMP success in order to shoot for difficult personal goals.

    I don’t think that they should consider themselves flawed or broken for having an STR-orientation; that current STR orientation *may* be a signal that this is NOT the time to settle down and risk killing off the spirit of the adventurer, that it is important to keep things fast and nimble with a light emotional/logistical footprint so that opportunities and challenges can be explored without having to answer to a committee of stakeholders (who may be incredibly discouraging and risk-averse if they view an LTR as a final destination or safe haven from which “happily ever after” dreams come true).

    I personally don’t have any close friends of middle-age onset who would say, “You know, I wish I had had fewer adventures in my twenties. I wish I’d settled down into a domesticated lifestyle earlier.” I do hear the opposing statement again and again and again, and some people have ended up kind of freaking out about it.

    Just my $.02 as a narcissistic arch-Explorer. Beware the hedonic treadmill and anticipate its effects…!

    • @Bastiat Blogger

      I don’t think that they should consider themselves flawed or broken for having an STR-orientation; that current STR orientation *may* be a signal that this is NOT the time to settle down and risk killing off the spirit of the adventurer, that it is important to keep things fast and nimble with a light emotional/logistical footprint so that opportunities and challenges can be explored without having to answer to a committee of stakeholders

      This is an interesting point. To what extent is a sociosexual orientation static? Does the Explorer ever become someone with an LTR orientation? And if he does, has his life experience changed who he is in a relationship? Is the high N man in an LTR the same as a man who has always had a LTR orientation, or who has exhibited a limited appetite for ONSs? And what should we conclude about the sociosexual orientation of a man like Zach who, as Mike C points out, has “problems” most men would envy. If Zach’s orientation is truly short-term, then why does he feel dissatisfied? One of the characteristics of STR men is that they thrive with an “in and out” approach.

      If half of this is genetic, as is believed, then the first step is in understanding one’s own hard wiring. Any approach to maximizing happiness, as opposed to sexual success, must realistically reflect that.

  • Maggie

    “I don’t think that they should consider themselves flawed or broken for having an STR-orientation; that current STR orientation *may* be a signal that this is NOT the time to settle down and risk killing off the spirit of the adventurer, that it is important to keep things fast and nimble with a light emotional/logistical footprint so that opportunities and challenges can be explored without having to answer to a committee of stakeholders (who may be incredibly discouraging and risk-averse if they view an LTR as a final destination or safe haven from which “happily ever after” dreams come true). ”

    Could this apply to women as well as men? Wouldn’t a women who did this be referred to as a slut?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    Ha. I’d pay to hear some actual female field reports….from say the young women who actually do go to bars on the weekend to potentially meet guys. To hear about guys that approach them and why they give guy A their number and tell guy B to take a hike. To describe first and second dates and why they continue on with some. And just to get their overall impression of various guys they meet. It would be invaluable information.

    Haven’t I been doing this for quite some time now? I know I’m just one woman, but I’ve written a lot about the men I’ve dated or been interested in.

    • @Sassy

      Haven’t I been doing this for quite some time now? I know I’m just one woman, but I’ve written a lot about the men I’ve dated or been interested in.

      Indeed you have. Generally, the men appreciate your commentary because you want alpha. Which is fine. Other single women who have commented here recently at length include:

      Mireille
      Iggles
      Ion
      Emily
      Say Whaat
      Courtley

      Apologies to anyone I’m missing at the moment. Anyway, the problem is that these women date or seek beta males, so their reports are thoroughly discounted.

      Mike C did say he wants reports from extraverted girls who frequent bars, but I think me might have better luck at a site like Cosmo or The Frisky.

  • Maggie, I think the short answer to this is “yes, many of those women are struggling against the ‘slut’ title and are pissed about it.”

    I hear this all the time from alpha female college students who don’t want relationships right now because they have personal goals that are driving them, and that appear to be at odd with the compromises and trade-offs that they assume an LTR would bring. They are left menu options A) STR and sex, B) celibacy, or C) taking on an LTR that they don’t particularly want (and under conditions that can be difficult to them because they probably want an alpha BF if they want one at all—hard to find in a campus environment of relative male scarcity and murky ‘dating vs. FWB’ rules).

    The crux of it is that a young woman who pursues STRs or celibacy or even an LTR-with-shelf-life during this stage may find that her SMP has declined when she does in fact feel that it is the right time to find a proper husband, while a young male may not have this problem because the male reproductive window ends later. Thus the female and the male adventurer may face different opportunity costs for delaying marriage.

    There are also arguments that say that celibacy or an LTR-with-shelf-life during the college years would be morally or psychologically superior to STRs. Once again, a campus stud is generally rewarded for casual sex by achieving celebrated recognition status with his peers, so a young male may not face the same problem that a similarly promiscuous female would. He may notionally be “slut-shamed” by those outside his social circle, but he has an easily available explanation: “those guys are jealous and would be doing what I am doing if they were in my position” (and this explanation is frequently accurate).

    One way to approach this would be to say that different reproductive kits mean that we should allow two different social rules, one permissive, romper-room ruleset for young male adventure-seekers and another, more conservative one, for young females. I find that most women do not like this one and see it as intrinsically and hideously unfair, although men can find it quite reasonable and appealing. So another, more fairness-minded approach would be to say that the same, libertine, nonjudgmental rules should apply to both sexes. The third way is to say that everyone should be slut-shamed for casual sex and socially condemned, or perhaps even arrested.

  • Maggie

    @Bastiat Blogger

    Your posts are spot on.

    I have a daughter who will be entering college next year so I have a lot of concerns about this. What baffles me is why these young women think a LTR would be more time-consuming and more likely to interfere with their goals than STRs would. In my twenties I worked full time, went to school and had a LTR. While the career and education were rewarding, the greatest long-lasting pleasure and rewards have come from my LTR (marriage).

  • Ted D

    Maggie – “What baffles me is why these young women think a LTR would be more time-consuming and more likely to interfere with their goals than STRs would.”

    Partly because the mantra of feminism. Young women are told to “have sex like a man” to feel “empowered”, and that they should focus on their career before “settling down”, and I believe that is because a young women “settling” many times means she is NOT trying to be the next CEO or VP of a fortune 500 company. Men and women are often fed BS that relationships are hard (which in large part is because our sexual roles are so screwed up, and partly because our society doesn’t have proper rules in place to promote healthy LTRs) and the concern is that the relationship will take too much time and energy. Lastly, as I’ve been told, many young women don’t want to get involved because they know they will be moving after they graduate.

    Personally I don’t see any of this as being an issue. Everyone doesn’t have to be a CEO, a relationship with a compatible person does not take that much work, and moving is a non-issue since a fresh graduate should be able to go anywhere (mostly) to find work. If they both graduate at the same time, they should move to wherever the first person gets a job.

    I managed to get a college degree while married with two kids. Granted that marriage turned to shit, but I know many people that have done the same. It is all about priorities and trade-offs. The problem is, I don’t think younger people are fond of making trade-offs. If they can’t have it all, they don’t want any of it.

  • INTJ

    @ Mike C

    And FWIW, as a side point, I think it is absolutely great that Zach and Jason post here regularly. It really is the only connection to on the ground reality. I’ve been out of the game since 2006. Many of the commenters here are in relationships or married so really to some extent ALL OF US are just talking out of our asses with theoretical speculation. Many of the regular male commenters really aren’t active out there so to speak. Zach and Jason are both extroverts approaching and interacting with large numbers of women on a regular basis so they are getting real-time feedback. I hope both will continue to bring back individual cases repeatedly. There was a reason Harvard used the case study method of individual businesses to understand broader business concepts.

    Yes this was exactly what I was saying earlier that detailed case studies and anecdotes are often more valuable than large scale surveys.

    • @Mike C

      There was a reason Harvard used the case study method of individual businesses to understand broader business concepts.

      Yes, there was, but the reason was not that any old anecdotal evidence trumps any and all studies.

      Only a small fraction of cases make it into the curriculum. The cases are used as vehicles for teaching, not to show what business “is really like.” For example, for Accounting you are given General Motors’ Annual Report. It’s not some GM exec giving us an earful – the information is documented and fully vetted.

      It’s the same in Marketing. For example, why did Starbucks succeed in China while Victoria’s Secret did not? Harvard has a metric for “success” that is measurable and undeniable. HBS professors do not debate what constitutes a “win” in China. By the time students get the case, the mystery has long since been solved. (Starbucks’ product is easily displayed as a status symbol, Victoria’s Secret’s is not.)

      In short, a story about how your coworker bangs new chicks every week does not meet HBS standards for veracity and usefulness. 🙂

  • Mike C

    Mike C did say he wants reports from extraverted girls who frequent bars, ***but I think me might have better luck at a site like Cosmo or The Frisky.****

    Susan, I’m unclear what the subtext of the bolded part is so rather then assume, I”ll ask you to clarify. I’m not sure what constitutes “frequenting” bars. I wasn’t talking about barflys who go to bars 4-6 times a week. YOU YOURSELF I’m pretty sure have mentioned your focus group girls going to bars on the weekends or occasionally for the post-work Happy Hour. I’m not that far removed from my twenties, but this was pretty normal behavior for people wanting to socialize and meet people.

    Indeed you have. Generally, the men appreciate your commentary because you want alpha. Which is fine.

    Yes, she has. And that is part of it….but also she shares some details of ACTUAL INTERACTIONS AND ACTUAL MEN…..not just generalized editorial opinion on various matters.

    Other single women who have commented here recently at length include: Mireille Iggles Ion Emily Say Whaat Courtley

    SayWhaat has shared personal details about various guys, but the rest of those names to the best of my recollection not so much. I believe Iggles is in a LTR and that is great for her, but there is nothing then to really talk about in terms of individual interaction with various men. Courtley has commented extensively but it is always generalized opinions. I can’t recall a single comment of hers talking about an individual guy she dated, or approached her or what not. The rest of the names…the same…they comment on their opinions on various matters….best I can recall Ion loves to go back and forth with Obsidian…..but again very, very little in terms of actual interactions with real men in real life. If I am missing something along those lines, I’d happy to be corrected with direct links to comments where actual interactions with actual men are described in detail.

    • @Mike C

      Thanks for asking me to clarify – I’m pretty sure that what I meant is not what you assumed I meant.

      Correct me if I’m wrong – it sounds like you are saying that you would like to hear from women who are actively seeking hookups and/or relationships with very dominant males. The 20 percenters. You have expressed great interest in the FRs of Jason and Zach – and you would like to hear from the women they’ve hooked up with or dated. (Not the specific women, but women from the same group.) Those women are high N as a rule – Jason ended his relationship because his gf was at 16, and Zach says he doesn’t really care much about prior sexual experience. Clearly, we are in the 10 or even 5 percent group here.

      Those women do not comment at HUS. Some of them probably come and read, but a high N woman who was considering leaving a comment would be very unlikely to do so after glancing at a thread, IMO. Nearly every young single woman who comments here expresses surprise and dismay at the views expressed by men about women at this site. Some stick around anyway, some don’t.

      The bottom line is that if you want to really see women, especially promiscuous women, speaking frankly here about their sex lives, their can’t be a whiff of judgment in the threads. We know that’s not going to happen, nor do I want it to. We engage in some pretty serious slut shaming around here, so we don’t get a lot of sluts hanging around.

      I wasn’t being snarky when I mentioned Cosmo and The Frisky – there are many women there who love casual sex and make no apologies for that. They high five each other, so you’re more likely to get a true look at those women if you go to the places they hang out.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    What we’ve got here is an unhappy manwhore, and he’s far from alone.

    And the rest of us are unhappy virgins.

  • INTJ

    @ Bastiat Blogger

    “those guys are jealous and would be doing what I am doing if they were in my position” (and this explanation is frequently accurate).

    No it isn’t. It’s just a cop out.

  • Zach

    @VD 477

    I am unhappy with STR right now. I don’t like it anymore. I’ve told my friends this long before I shared it on here. However, I’m not SO unhappy that I’d rather be celibate. I still am “hard-wired” as Susan would say, to want sex, and my right hand just doesn’t do it for me most of the time.

    Secondly, I’d like to take on this notion of “focusing on other parts of myself”. I’m currently applying, and likely will go to, a top 10 business school (with any luck, top 3). I’ve been promoted twice in 3 years at my job. I’m currently, at age 25, on a trip to the West Coast to meet with the leadership of our LA, SF and Seattle offices by myself. I will be in a a room full of very senior 45+ year-olds, presenting to them on behalf of my department, on my own. On the flight here, I read the entire September/October issue of Foreign Policy (some great essays on Europe, as well as taxation in the US). I play basketball twice a week with my friends. And on Wednesday night I’m seeing this girl in Seattle (Susan, will keep you updated on how that goes). I don’t see chasing STRs as inherently taking away from any other part of myself. I could cite numerous other friends of mine who are the same (highly successful, very well-read, also meeting/chasing random girls).

    @Susan

    I’m not particularly fragile, so I don’t mind the criticism. I don’t consider myself a Master of the Universe. I hate finance, and have no interest in going into it. I’m actually going to Bschool so I can go into management in industry. That’s my goal. I’d say I probably have a more backwards-bending labor supply curve than most. My goal is to be happy with what I do, and prestige, money, etc is secondary.

    Here’s my issue: I have yet to hear a workable strategy for meeting better girls. “Stay out of bars” is not a workable strategy, because meeting women in places other than bars is a rare occurrence. Relying on introductions by friends, parties like the one over Labor Day, etc, is just relying on luck. I may have 10 or so of those opportunities a year. And then I have to rely on their liking me, and their being single. Let’s say that happens with 2/10 (20% is a pretty good success rate). That’s limiting me to 2 women a year that I can potentially date. Given everything that has to click for it to work, that’s a long, long shot. It’s not a workable strategy. At bars, I’ve become far, far more selective about who I approach. The problem is, there’s nothing you can tell about a woman at a bar except for her attractiveness before you approach her. And believe me, I’ve walked away from dumb girls at bars a LOT. But a 20-minute interaction at a bar often can’t tell you enough to make a go/no-go decision on a woman. That requires dating. So I ask them out on dates (I almost never take them home; I get numbers). And that’s where I find that either they’re not so into me, or I’m not so into them. Maybe 15% of the girls I go on a first date with make it to a third date, for any number of reasons.

    The best advice I’ve heard so far is on the engineer’s triangle side of things (not the first time I’ve heard that theory/research). I may need to focus more closely on what’s important to me, and thus broaden my horizons by prioritizing and not being so picky.

    • @Zach

      . “Stay out of bars” is not a workable strategy, because meeting women in places other than bars is a rare occurrence. Relying on introductions by friends, parties like the one over Labor Day, etc, is just relying on luck. I may have 10 or so of those opportunities a year.

      Here are the most common ways that spouses meet, in order:

      1. School
      2. Work
      3. Friends of friends
      4. Random encounters

      School: Done for now, but going back to b-school. There are always lots of couples in b-school.

      Work: Even if you don’t date anyone from work, work can be a great source of meeting new people. I know one young woman whose female boss on the Trading Floor had her to dinner with an associate from her husband’s firm. In lots of places, people who work together go out for drinks, etc., and they begin to overlap work friends with other friends.

      Social Circle: I think one thing that’s hampering you is that your social scene is so heavily focused on hanging in bars. You’ve stated clearly this is your scene and you have no wish to change it. If you think that women who go to bars several times a week are “typical,” then this is no big deal. In that case, your frustration would be the same no matter where you hung out. Personally, I think it’s fair to say that extraverted women who go to bars a few times a week or more are generally more promiscuous and hypergamous. You may not object to those qualities, but the thing is they correspond to certain personality traits in most cases, including narcissism, low empathy, flakiness, sense of entitlement, etc.

      In any case, I don’t see how meeting a woman who doesn’t hang in bars is going to work, when you have a requirement that your gf does that with you.

      What I was getting at in my previous comment was that you don’t appear to want a woman who is…like you.

      Random encounters: This is where I usually hear the best stories. One young woman I know met her bf when she was moving out of Beacon Hill and he was moving in.

      I recently shared a story about a girl who went up to a guy at CVS during a Gatorade twofer sale and said, “Wanna be my Gatorade Plus One?” And I shared a story about a cute guy watching a girl do a terrible job parallel parking, teasing her, then laughing and inviting her to grab coffee at a little outdoor cafe.

      You’re a handsome, cocky extravert, you could meet women anywhere. Put down that issue of Foreign Policy and chat up someone cute at the airport. Walk up to a stranger in LA and ask them where to get the best coffee. Or what the best food truck is.

      There’s no one perfect strategy. You have to meet people wherever you can.

      But make no mistake – women know that guys in bars want sex fast. Really fast. They don’t go there to meet their future husbands. And most guys in bars are not seeking an LTR – in fact, I’ve heard guys express they don’t even need to be ethical with a woman they met in a bar – “We met in a bar, what does she expect?”

      I do know quality girls who go to bars, but in all honesty, I can’t think of any who found a good boyfriend there. While the stories of booty calls, pretending to be single (including one guy who got married just this spring!), aggressive sexual escalation, etc. are common. The woman who turns you down is probably the best woman in the place. You’d probably get a totally different response if you chatted while on line at Shake Shack.

  • Zach

    Lastly @Susan

    The problem is, the bullshit WORKS. Even on “good” women. It works all too well.

  • Mike C

    Is the high N man in an LTR the same as a man who has always had a LTR orientation, or who has exhibited a limited appetite for ONSs?

    Probably not.

    If Zach’s orientation is truly short-term, then why does he feel dissatisfied? One of the characteristics of STR men is that they thrive with an “in and out” approach.

    Because it is NOT that cut and dry. I know I am repeating myself on this point, but I just don’t think you can always box someone into 1 of 2 categories.

  • Escoffier

    Maybe the problem is the enviornment. Stipulate that you are right, that all or most of the women in bars are of the quality that you want but also that many will have intelligence and good character suitable to an LTR.

    Clearly, then something is going wrong. And maybe it is that bars bring out the worst in them, the silly hypergamous game-guzzling shallowness.

    Since they can’t spend their whole lives in bars, there must be some other place to meet such women where the gravitational pull of STR-game-induced stupidity is not so strong.

  • @Susan
    Sorry most of those shows might be intellectually stimulant but they look to me, morally bankrupt, not entertaining to me I actually like shows that try to be both and succeed one of the things they are far and in between, YMMV.

    @Just
    Yeah I’m thinking that too, I have Netflix already and I rewatched Avatar the last airbender and watch Futurama on it. But the science documentaries and studies department is limited so maybe cable blocking a lot of channels might be a solution. Thinking about it.

  • Because it is NOT that cut and dry. I know I am repeating myself on this point, but I just don’t think you can always box someone into 1 of 2 categories.

    I wanted to comment that even though this is a point we disagree with at least you are very consistent about it, The same about women not being just sluts and good girls but navigating between both depending on how high the SMV of the man in question is.
    I personally agree with the part that we are born with an spectrum and the medium helps to lean on one side or other depending on the rewards the community gives. Nowadays society rewards “sexy and fun” over “nice and reliable” so of course we have more women willing to gamble, what they can lose? If they don’t have a strong wiring against casual they have little to regret.

    This is a comment to Mike C about an intellectual matter not aimed at anyone personally:

    Now what I disagree is that this doesn’t affect people, IME the brain is more flexible than people though it was, it can get used to and addicted to an strategy if you spent too much time in it, the same way some people develop addiction to food, alcohol and drugs. The limits might vary among people but since we are not born with a measure of “How much fun you have before your brain can only be stimulated by fun or builds resistance to it that you need strong stimuli to feel whole?” Is always best to limit one’s intakes of it and exercise restrain from time to time as not to let that muscle go atrophied. Like is always best to try and eat healthy than to gorge yourself on fast food everytime you have the chance, time will tell which one of us is right of course, just wanted to mention it, YMMV.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “Anyway, Zach is unhappy in the SMP, and it’s women’s fault. It’s women who have created men like Zach, men who have sex with women they’re not even attracted to because “my dick wants it.”

    Thank you, Finally. I agree, women may create and continue to feed these men, but so do other men. I don’t marginalize his plight, I appreciate his sharing and contribution here, and I am empathetic to his cause, but I also believe that the lonely-hearted-player saga reads just as tedious as the tale of the “slutty” girl who just keeps putting out for alpha ass-hats while searching, yearning for the unicorn BF. The difference being that her story would get skewered straight away. The chosen environment, behaviors, (poor) strategy, and results are similar. But more importantly, so are the remedies. Delaying immediate gratification, future orientation, venue, and on and on.

    I know plenty of men like Zach, except they have an additional 5-10 years under their belts. The majority are good men at heart (and to be fair I assume Zach is in that cam as well) Some are just now waking up – or hitting the truly jaded state as VD reports, and those that do would love to tell their younger selves all about the diminishing returns of the casual-player path. But try telling that to a 25 y/o with his dick stuck in an “8”, or even a boorish “9” who hasn’t read the latest Economist. Its the same myopia and selective deafness that plagues those women who fall on their backs for the DBags, frat kings, and BU hockey team hoping to land the Alpha BF.

    “Zach can keep doing exactly what he’s doing, and getting the same results. Or he can change his strategy. It’s immaterial to me what he does, but I sure don’t see any useful advice coming from the guys.”

    In defense of the lack of advice from men: it is extremely unpopular (advice) to suggest that a guy should not accept the seemingly free rewards of his status/behavior in the SMP. Especially if that advice comes from (boring) betas who don’t register as high-status due to the lack of the frequent reports of the very behavior (sexual conquests) which just happens to be both the problem and the readily available and nearly universally accepted proof of such status. The problem and the proof is something that is wound tightly in the fabric of the SMP, which is to say our culture as well.

    I find Zach’s commentary to be interesting and insightful and he is generally self-aware, yet the very tales of his “successful” sexual exploits fail to arouse anything that could be considered a decrease in status. Instead, the tone is usually sympathetic and centers around advice to increase his odds of landing the woman of his desires as opposed to anything that might illuminate the fact that banging two girls within a week of date 4 with a woman who he actually “likes” might not just be a really shitty strategy but also gums up the entire system in the same way that those girls who ONS with him are gumming it up for the women who are not slutting it up in the bars.

    “My advice is to attract a good woman by being a good man.”

    While I try to hold this as a central tenet in my approach, there are all kinds of “jaded” that do NOT originate from years of seeking out and accepting (too much) sex from women. In fact, the very definition of “a good man” (c 1975- ?) is part of the problem, not just the solution. Those are the men who I am more likely to offer up advice to because I feel that my advice would not come across as diluted or uninteresting or boring or not relatable or full of jealousy, etc.

    Perhaps that is one reason (if only mine) why Zach’s situation has not garnered the male advice you think it should. IMO, until the pursuit of his long-term goal (a relationship) is viewed as “failing” to a greater and more relevant extent than his short-term exploits are viewed as “successes” and thus SMV status increases, there is not much I can say – or that he will heed, until his own view of this paradigm is flipped. And until his current behavior (racking up casual #’s) results in a significant reduction of his SMV or impacts his status as a “catch”, it is unlikely that he will have sufficient motivation to instill the discipline necessary to upend that paradigm. Feedback loops are a bitch.

    “What we’ve got here is an unhappy manwhore, and he’s far from alone.”

    So true. He is in great company with all of the current, future, and reformed unhappy sluts. Why they can’t seem to find each other for keeps is the real shame.

  • J

    These threads always devolve into how the guy can change his approach based on what attracted Susan/J/Hope, etc…There are still a lot of Susans/Js/Hopes out there out there, but because of the change in norms, their expectations are a lot different.

    At the risk of sounding like a solipsistic bitch (You know, unlike usual ;-0)
    I think a lot of the guys who post here would be happiest with women like us. That’s why you guys post here to a certain extent. You need women like us, but we’re hard to find. We still exist, but we’re often invisible or not in the bars or just hard to meet.

  • INTJ

    @ J

    At the risk of sounding like a solipsistic bitch (You know, unlike usual ;-0)
    I think a lot of the guys who post here would be happiest with women like us. That’s why you guys post here to a certain extent. You need women like us, but we’re hard to find. We still exist, but we’re often invisible or not in the bars or just hard to meet.

    Not to mention a lot of women that we would want already have boyfriends.

  • Ted D

    Susan -“The bottom line is that if you want to really see women, especially promiscuous women, speaking frankly here about their sex lives, their can’t be a whiff of judgment in the threads”

    I’m being sincere asking this, so please do not take this personally. Is this “fear” of being judged primarily a female thing, or do you think it is personality based? I ask because most of the men I know not only take it in stride when they are judged, but many (like myself) actually look for it in order to ensure we are on the right track.

    For example, we have to do a yearly “performance review” at work. We are asked to provide three names of people we worked with over the last year to provide a small “feedback” sheet that is included as part of our overall “score”. My first year here, my boss was concerned over one of my choices because she knew that he and I had some disagreements while working on a project. I told her I intentionally chose him because I wanted feedback from someone that wouldn’t allow thier personal opinion of me to cloud thier assessment. Since this particular person was frustrated with me, I expected negative feedback. I expected it to be a little over the top, but I also felt like he might point out flaws that others would either miss or neglect to point out for fear of making me feel bad.

    So, is fear of judgment a female thing, or is it more personality based in your opinion?

    • @Ted D

      I think fear of being judged for promiscuity is very definitely a female thing. But we also may be more quick to take offense when judged. We saw that in the thread last week when it was me against the guys, and I got offended when my character was called into question.

      OTOH, it depends on the source and whether I respect that person. I have haters who mock me and I find it amusing.

      I will also say that as a general rule, narcissism makes even constructive criticism less welcome, and less likely to be effective. Increasing numbers of female narcissists is going to exacerbate this tendency.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Correct me if I’m wrong – it sounds like you are saying that you would like to hear from women who are actively seeking hookups and/or relationships with very dominant males.

    I’m going to speak for Mike C here and point out that this isn’t what he wants. It’s not about hearing from women who’re seeking dominant males. It’s about hearing women (who may or may not be seeking beta males) talk about actual field reports in detail, rather than just generalized anecdotes. I mean it’s great and all to hear how a woman “finds that attractive” or “would prefer that in a guy”, but what we really want to hear is how actual individual interactions go for women seeking guys.

    • It’s about hearing women (who may or may not be seeking beta males) talk about actual field reports in detail, rather than just generalized anecdotes. I mean it’s great and all to hear how a woman “finds that attractive” or “would prefer that in a guy”, but what we really want to hear is how actual individual interactions go for women seeking guys.

      That’s the analytical, logical, problem-solving instinct, but males do this much more than females. We feel our way to solutions by processing these situations at great length with trusted friends.

      Remember those Wall St. guys who were tracking their dating lives on Spreadsheets and asking their dates to go on Survey Monkey and give them feedback? A woman would never do that.

  • Mike C

    Thanks for asking me to clarify – I’m pretty sure that what I meant is not what you assumed I meant.

    No prob….and actually I really tried not to assume anything…or at least assume I was wrong on my assumption….haha 🙂

    Correct me if I’m wrong – it sounds like you are saying that you would like to hear from women who are actively seeking hookups and/or relationships with very dominant males. The 20 percenters.

    No…not really…or at least not exclusively. Sassy isn’t a 20%er…..she isn’t out indiscriminately hooking up with every single dominant guy she finds attractive. I would like to hear more from women who kind of use more “normal” (for lack of a better term) ways of meeting men, and it doesn’t have to be dominant men, it could be pure beta, just ACTUAL interactions. Something like I went to bar X over the weekend, and guy A approached me and started a conversation. Here were my impressions, here was my follow-up, and here is why.

    I wasn’t being snarky when I mentioned Cosmo and The Frisky – there are many women there who love casual sex and make no apologies for that. They high five each other, so you’re more likely to get a true look at those women if you go to the places they hang out.

    I might go check it out. I’m curious to see what a look inside the “girls locker room” is like.

  • Zach

    @Tasmin (also @Susan):

    “And until his current behavior (racking up casual #’s) results in a significant reduction of his SMV or impacts his status as a ‘catch'”

    That’s the point that I feel is being missed here. I’ve grown sick of casual sex in and of itself. Susan, going back to all the research you’ve done on this blog, it’s pretty clear that high N for men is viewed as a positive by women as much as a negative. In fact, I’d say more so the former than the latter. Pre-selection. Just look at the repeated findings that women rate the same man as more attractive if he is in a picture surrounded by attractive women instead of by himself. I want to not have casual sex because I don’t really enjoy it anymore, not because I believe it’s harming my SMV.

    And this may sound brusque, but “be a good man” isn’t a strategy for getting an LTR. As you may have noted, I’m somewhat of a planner. I read the data, form a conclusion, and act on it. A strategy would be “Go to x places where women congregate and are ok with being approached by men. They are a different type than you’d meet at bars/the setting will make them view the encounter in a different light.” That is actionable. It’s something I could put into practice. So far, most of the suggestions I’ve seen conflict with the data/observations, or are not actionable.

    The “reevaluate what you find most important in an LTR” is actionable. “Go to a cooking class once a week, you can meet some good women there outside of a sexually charged situation” is actionable. “Rely on chance encounters with friends of friends” is not actionable. As a former consultant, I’m sure you can see the difference between these recommendations.

    Lastly, I have modified my behavior quite a bit. I approach far, far fewer women at bars than I used to. I pull the plug on girls faster than I used to when it becomes clear it’s not going to be an LTR. For instance, a couple of months ago I was going out with a girl who I liked quite a bit. She was very attractive, but I found out that she was still involved with her ex. In the past, I would have waited until we’d slept together, and then bailed. This time, I bailed before we’d ever slept together, because I’m prioritizing things other than sex.

    Also @Tasmin:

    Paragraph 1 is why I don’t see myself as akin to those female sluts. Rail against it as much as you want, but being a slut has far, far different ramifications for a man than it does for a woman.

  • INTJ

    @ Tasmin

    Thank you, Finally. I agree, women may create and continue to feed these men, but so do other men. I don’t marginalize his plight, I appreciate his sharing and contribution here, and I am empathetic to his cause, but I also believe that the lonely-hearted-player saga reads just as tedious as the tale of the “slutty” girl who just keeps putting out for alpha ass-hats while searching, yearning for the unicorn BF. The difference being that her story would get skewered straight away. The chosen environment, behaviors, (poor) strategy, and results are similar. But more importantly, so are the remedies. Delaying immediate gratification, future orientation, venue, and on and on.

    As a good man, I dislike Zach’s behavior. But I can’t criticize him for it. I’ve seen too many guys futilely try LTR strategies and get stuck in the friend-zone to demand that Zach do the same.

  • I do know quality girls who go to bars, but in all honesty, I can’t think of any who found a good boyfriend there.

    Whether or not I’m quality is open to discussion, but I met my BF at a bar. We’re together 3 years later, and still go to bars occasionally (though we don’t go to meet people, we go to hang out with friends).

    • Whether or not I’m quality is open to discussion, but I met my BF at a bar. We’re together 3 years later, and still go to bars occasionally (though we don’t go to meet people, we go to hang out with friends).

      Of course you are quality! Olive, was this in college? I’m wondering if meeting a fellow student in a college bar works differently than being out and about in NYC. I also wonder if there are geographical differences. The Boston bar scene is very lively, but I’d say that most women are happy to go only occasionally once they have been out of school for a couple of years. Of course, going with a bf to hang out in a group is something completely different. Drinking with friends is very different than being on the prowl with a single sex group.

  • Zach

    @Susan 506

    See, that is actionable. You’re right, no 1 won’t work for me right now, but it may in the future. As for no 2, unfortunately my office is not particularly social outside of my small team, so it’s pretty limited there. I also will not date someone I work with (just not good news for anyone). For no 3, I have met a couple of girls I’ve seen through this method, but it’s not really a reliable method. It’s a passive approach, not an active one. No 4 is, I believe, where I could stand the most room for improvement. I cannot recall the last woman I “picked up” outside of a bar environment. It’s something I honestly should focus more on. IE chatting up that cute girl in line at coffee shop/store/wherever. The one problem I have with this is that women tend to have their guard up big time when not in a “pickup” setting, and are much more likely to rebuff attempts to approach them. In a bar, girls are often looking to meet people, and so are much more accommodating to men who approach them.

    And I don’t need a woman who wants to go out to bars 3-4 times a week. I don’t go to bars 3-4 times a week. I usually go out to bars on Friday and Saturday, and then maybe once during the week for happy hour/birthday/event. My issue is that there tends to be a bright line division between bar girls and non bar girls. As in the girls who go to bars, go to bars, but the girls who don’t actively dislike it. I couldn’t date a girl who got pissed at me every time I went out on Saturday night with my friends, or who never came. Yes, my friends and I do like to go out to bars, we generally go to a bar every Sunday for football, and people’s birthday parties are mostly dinner then bar. So I wouldn’t be willing to give up my whole social life just because my girlfriend didn’t like it. But a girl who stayed in a couple nights a week while I went out? That’s fine. I’d even say that with my ex I went out a little less than I did when I was single. Most of my friends do go out a lot less when they’re in a relationship than when they’re single, and it’s not only because of their girlfriends.

    • @Zach

      The one problem I have with this is that women tend to have their guard up big time when not in a “pickup” setting, and are much more likely to rebuff attempts to approach them. In a bar, girls are often looking to meet people, and so are much more accommodating to men who approach them.

      Good, that’s what you want. IME, the highest SMV women who are not slutty are weary and wary of being objectified by men sexually. You’ll find that during the day or in random encounters, you’re going to need “good guy” Game (not to be confused with Nice Guy TM). Confident, not cocky. Believe me, the preselection will come through loud and clear based on your SMV and your awareness of it.

      The guys will probs tell you to ignore my advice, but it’s worth experimenting with. You have nothing to lose, as you can work on this skill while continuing your usual approach.

      But a girl who stayed in a couple nights a week while I went out? That’s fine. I’d even say that with my ex I went out a little less than I did when I was single. Most of my friends do go out a lot less when they’re in a relationship than when they’re single, and it’s not only because of their girlfriends.

      Girlfriends definitely like to stay in sometimes and have alone time. Trying to date someone who always wants to go out and be with other people is a bit of a red flag. Maybe if you met someone really special, you’d find that you were happy to play house a bit more.

  • Ted D

    Zach – “It’s something I could put into practice. So far, most of the suggestions I’ve seen conflict with the data/observations, or are not actionable.”

    I feel you, and this is part of my problem with a lot of the Red Pill knowledge in general: a lot of it is “touchy feely” kind of emotional stuff, and most of that is NOT easy to plan for. I have great difficulty in the realm of “feelings” because they are hard to control, rather random, and cannot be relied on to behave the same way every single time. How can you plan for everything and anything? How can you KNOW how someone will “feel” about a pickup line, a touch to the arm, a cocky remark?

  • Zach

    @INTJ

    “As a good man, I dislike Zach’s behavior”

    Big problems here. Who exactly am I victimizing here that makes me a “bad” man? I have never lied to a girl to get her into bed. Not once. Never told a girl I was an astronaut, never said I loved her, and I have never falsely promised relationships to girls who I’m not going to date. And I’ve never, ever cheated on someone. Everything they do they do of their own volition. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads. So unless you think there is something inherently immoral or “bad” about consensual sex between two adults, then please get off your high horse. I’ll accept criticism of my lifestyle and sexual choices, but not on the grounds that having casual sex in and of itself makes me less of a good person.

  • Sassy6519

    If it helps, I can disclose more information on the guy I’ve been dating.

    He and I actually met in a nightclub, of all places. I have never given my phone number to a guy in a club before, but he was the first guy to make me want to give him my phone number in such a venue.

    He’s 6 foot 4 with blonde hair, blue eyes, and a great smile. I was really impressed with the fact that he is a fantastic dancer. Most men in clubs can’t dance well to save their lives. Once I noticed that he could move, my interest was piqued.

    He and I have been on 5-6 dates so far, and I’m almost positive that he and I are headed to BF/GF territory. We’ve talked about long-term goals, values, belief systems, and other things. We’ve been surprisingly compatible in all of those aspects.

    He and I have decided to wait awhile before sleeping with each other, but the sexual tension is out of this world. I never imagined having as much chemistry with someone, especially like the chemistry I’ve had in the past with my notorious ex-boyfriend, but the chemistry between this new guy and I is off the charts. We can’t keep our hands off of each other.

    It’s really interesting because he really does check all of my “checklist” boxes.

    -He’s physically attractive
    -He’s intelligent and has a great sense of humor
    -He and I have great chemistry
    -He and I have similar values and beliefs
    -He’s dominant and confident
    -He’s wealthy (He comes from an old southern family with a lot of money)
    -He’s packing serious heat in the “pants” department, if you catch my drift
    -He’s ambitious and driven
    -He’s also very affectionate and open towards me

    He’s actually surprisingly close to my ideal.

  • Mike C

    I’m going to speak for Mike C here and point out that this isn’t what he wants. It’s not about hearing from women who’re seeking dominant males. ****It’s about hearing women (who may or may not be seeking beta males) talk about actual field reports in detail, rather than just generalized anecdotes. I mean it’s great and all to hear how a woman “finds that attractive” or “would prefer that in a guy”, but what we really want to hear is how actual individual interactions go for women seeking guys.****

    Yes, that is exactly it.

  • Mike C

    That’s the point that I feel is being missed here. I’ve grown sick of casual sex in and of itself. ….

    I want to not have casual sex because I don’t really enjoy it anymore, not because I believe it’s harming my SMV.

    Zach,

    I’ll admit you’ve got me confused here. If this is true, then simply stop having casual sex. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do something you are sick of and don’t enjoy. This would be like me talking about how sick I am of eating chicken, and then we go out for lunch and I order chicken. Maybe you need a self-imposed 3-6 month break from any casual sex, and use that time to focus exclusively on possibly meeting someone for a LTR if that is what you really want.

  • Susan,
    It was over the summer when I was staying on campus to work. I’d say yes, bars will differ according to location. I went to a liberal arts school in a small town, so the bar scene was less upscale than NYC or Boston, I’m sure. Actually the one in which I met by BF was downright trashy lol. Certain nights it was overrun with college students, but I have a friend who used to work at a women’s shelter near campus, and she said she used to see her clients there on weeknights!

    Also looks like Sassy met the guy she’s currently dating at a nightclub, so there’s another example. I think we’re getting close to setting up a “you can’t really find quality girls in bars” kind of dynamic. And as you know, I never really liked the “quality vs. not quality” dichotomy in the first place.

    • I think we’re getting close to setting up a “you can’t really find quality girls in bars” kind of dynamic.

      Well, I’ve said openly that my own daughter and her friends go out to bars to meet up with their friends, both male and female. That’s the norm. I’ve also said that the women who are more LTR oriented are likely to be less aggressive and less welcoming of a cocky guy.

      Perhaps it’s just the women I know, but they reject any guy with a player vibe – those guys get the eye roll and the hand. On the other hand, they’re open to chatting with a guy who’s standing next to them at the bar waiting for a drink, or a guy who asks them to dance.

      I think a lot of women who’ve done the scene for college and then a couple more years are just over the asshole thing. They’re 23, 24 and they’re sick of douches. One woman I know just went on a date with a guy who is 29. He has been initiating traditional dates, which thrills her. She told me that in talking about their pasts, he confessed that his college gf was a total crazy bitch, but he also said that he was a selfish prick, so he deserved it. He said that he couldn’t believe what an idiot he was at 21.

      Another reason women should date 5 years older if they can.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Might I suggest that the nature of male commentary here does not induce women to share their experiences? The ones who don’t get verbally slaughtered find themselves being used as a Red Pill hammer, proof of women’s “real nature.””

    You beat me to the punch here. The strategy seems to be “beatings will continue until morale improves”. You’ve given us some advice not to be judgmental, and I think my views are known on the touchiness of men judging female mating choices (I’ll post something in the hot and mean thread after work tonight – 14 hour days, yuck – about the different connotations of “judgment”, I think we mean completely different things by the word, but whatever), so I’m willing to back off off that, and judging you, for that matter.

    Would it help if we contest the drive-by haters instead of ignoring them? Just sit back and observe?

    • @Desi

      The strategy seems to be “beatings will continue until morale improves”.

      Thanks for the laugh, this cracked me up.

      I don’t think the problem is necessarily drive-by haters. To be honest, I think it’s very difficult to host a discussion where men are digesting the red pill at the same time women are being honest about their experiences and attraction triggers.

      I like having the guys here. I don’t have a handle on what things would be like without you all. I think the unique feature of HUS is men and women exchanging views – that’s what drives comments over 1,000. I’m not willing to sacrifice that so that one sex will be more comfortable. But it means that you may not see the range of female commentary you’d like. Though I do think it can get better.

  • Desiderius

    “Think about it.”

    What I’m thinking about is the implications of writing off an entire generation of our best and brightest women as good marriage prospects because they followed the advice of their sex-positive professors, when they’ve been told all their lives that the one thing that matters most is academic/career achievement and they may have understandably understood that to mean following the advice of their professors.

    Think about that.

  • Desiderius

    Also thinking about what Zach’s STEM girl will think of him if he takes her up on her offer and doesn’t go for the f-close. We all know how alpha females are with norms, and that is still the norm. Will he even have the opportunity to show what else he brings to the table, or will his prestige carry him through?

    • Also thinking about what Zach’s STEM girl will think of him if he takes her up on her offer and doesn’t go for the f-close. We all know how alpha females are with norms, and that is still the norm. Will he even have the opportunity to show what else he brings to the table, or will his prestige carry him through?

      Or perhaps she enjoyed his company and is looking forward to an evening of interesting conversation that ends with a goodnight kiss.

      Did I miss something? Did this woman tell Zach she wants to have sex with him?

  • Ted D

    “You’ve given us some advice not to be judgmental, and I think my views are known on the touchiness of men judging female mating choices (I’ll post something in the hot and mean thread after work tonight – 14 hour days, yuck – about the different connotations of “judgment”, I think we mean completely different things by the word, but whatever), so I’m willing to back off off that, and judging you, for that matter.”

    OK seriously, if you take away my judging I’ll have nothing left but my charming wit and boyish good looks!

    To be honest, I don’t know how NOT to be judgmental. I find it extremely difficult to listen to anyone talk about anything without making judgments the entire time. Not to say it is all negative, sometimes they are positive judgments, but judgments all the same. Good grief, if I don’t judge, what is the point of communication at all? (that was partially sarcastic, but you all are very aware of my great dislike of idle chatter. The primary reason is: there are no judgments to be made in conversations about the weather.)

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Again, I haven’t hung out with her yet, so I have no idea. But you’ll have to explain to me why a girl would invite me to meet up with her when I’m in town for 24 hours, and I can’t possibly date her cross-country.

    • @Zach

      But you’ll have to explain to me why a girl would invite me to meet up with her when I’m in town for 24 hours, and I can’t possibly date her cross-country.

      That’s a very good question. You were there, I’m sure you read the vibes right. I just think this is one area where it makes sense not to count your condoms before the foil packet gets ripped open.

  • Zach

    @Mike C

    I think I mentioned in a previous post that I dislike it, but not enough to go celibate. I dislike celibacy more. So between not having any sex for 6 months and having casual sex, I’ll take the latter. What I’m trying to do is balance all this with trying to find an LTR. I’ve cut back a ton on my casual sex in the past month or two, but until I find an LTR, I’m not quite willing to go celibate.

  • VD

    I am unhappy with STR right now. I don’t like it anymore. I’ve told my friends this long before I shared it on here. However, I’m not SO unhappy that I’d rather be celibate.

    Give it time, mate, give it time…. When I went cold turkey on sex for six months, I was astonished at how it was like turbocharging my creative engine. I’m not saying you should do that, you understand, only that having your “hunter” subroutine running at all times can wear on you in ways you don’t even notice.

    I’d like to take on this notion of “focusing on other parts of myself”.

    I’m not questioning your success or its trappings. Do you really want an MBA? Do you really want to spend the rest of your life climbing the ladder in corporate America? If so, great, then carry on and kick ass in the boardroom. I wish you the best of luck. But if you’re unhappy or finding a lack of meaning in your life, that is an indication that something important is missing. Now, I don’t know you. I can’t tell you what that is. But I can tell you that I know what it feels like, assure you that no amount of STRs will fill the void, and encourage you to try to figure it out.

    I guess what it all comes down to is this: what gives you joy? Not happiness or contentment or satisfaction, but genuine and unmistakable joy? Once you figure it out, go for it.

  • VD

    I do know quality girls who go to bars, but in all honesty, I can’t think of any who found a good boyfriend there.

    I met my wife at a bar. She was out with one of her orbiters out for his birthday but approached my friend and me and got into a conversation about workouts. And nearly hung up on me the next day when I called her and couldn’t remember what name I’d given her…. We got married a little less than a year later.

    Probably not a lot of useful advice to be gleaned from that one.

    • @VD

      I’ll never forget your description of getting your first look at Spacebunny’s “snake hips.”

      This is good – now we’ll have good stories of happily married people who met in bars.

      I have a good alpha male story, actually. A friend of mine from college was in a bar, flirting with a cute guy (Much, much higher SMV than her. She always did surprisingly well.) Anyway, after a while he asked for her number. She said, “I told you my name. If you’re interested enough, you’ll find me.” To which he said, “Screw that. Either write it down or see ya never.” She hurriedly wrote it out on a napkin. They’ve been married for 32 years.

  • Tasmin

    @INTJ
    “As a good man, I dislike Zach’s behavior. But I can’t criticize him for it. I’ve seen too many guys futilely try LTR strategies and get stuck in the friend-zone to demand that Zach do the same.”

    I wasn’t criticizing his behavior on its own accord, but rather pointing out that his approach is very similar to women who behave in certain ways and simultaneously bemoan the results of that behavior. Which when brought to forum here are quickly and decisively reduced to a summation of bad strategy, among other things. While I do have my own beliefs that run counter to his behaviors, I don’t really care what he does. I have good male friends in his very shoes and I feel the same toward them. I respect them on a lot of levels but I will not be setting them up with women friends or relatives because I don’t feel that they are aligned for LTR in terms of beliefs and behaviors, a problem that gets a lot of attention around here when it is the woman who says x and is doing y.

    People come here expressing their feelings and willingly weave detailed narratives, with the hope that advice, discussion, debate, and ultimately some resolve or clarity will come. My underlying point is far from revolutionary or critical of his worth: until he choses to forgo the easy, quick, short-term, immediate-gratification route he will be stuck exactly where he is now. And if that place is an unhappy one, then it is entirely up to his own ability to take the tougher path, the higher road in pursuit of change.

    Believe me, I understand how the whole LTR strategy can be a low yield investment, but then I don’t define yield in terms of getting laid which is where Zach’s approach seems to be failing. He is unwilling to give up his short-term ability to get laid, and the options available, to fully invest in the pursuit of the long-term, the unknown. That’s like short-selling but actually *wanting* the stock to go up. The data suggests the stock is going up, but he is too attracted to the near-term volatility which allows him to profit (sex) repeatedly. Thats fine, unless what you actually want counts for anything and as long as you don’t ride that short position past the point of being able to cover in the end. The pain he feels now, his unhappiness, is the collateral he has to post as the stock is rising. Sound like a good strategy?

    Chances are he has a high enough SMV that he will eventually pull a woman that doesn’t care about his whoring ways and hopefully vice-versa, but I know a lot of men who are still riding that short-sell in the SMP and are still posting collateral, but instead of happiness, the price of the collateral is much higher, like the potential to have children.

    • @Tasmin

      I respect them on a lot of levels but I will not be setting them up with women friends or relatives because I don’t feel that they are aligned for LTR in terms of beliefs and behaviors, a problem that gets a lot of attention around here when it is the woman who says x and is doing y.

      I feel this way about Zach and have told him so. If he wants to marry someone he adores and cherishes someday, I think he needs to turn off the spigot. It’s messing with his head, and rendering him risky in terms of long-term potential, IMO.

      He is unwilling to give up his short-term ability to get laid, and the options available, to fully invest in the pursuit of the long-term, the unknown. That’s like short-selling but actually *wanting* the stock to go up.

      Yes. (Great analogy, btw.) The thing is, and sure enough, I often say this to women – there’s an opportunity cost to what Zach is doing now. The way he perceives a woman he meets when he had sex with two randos last weekend is going to be materially different than his perception if he hadn’t had sex in three months. Maybe he would in fact be less picky in some way, and give someone a shot who he would otherwise not bother with. IDK exactly how it works for men. But I do know that for women, spinning wheels and wasting time takes physical and psychic energy, and that detracts from getting what you really want – in tangible ways.

      Chances are he has a high enough SMV that he will eventually pull a woman that doesn’t care about his whoring ways and hopefully vice-versa, but I know a lot of men who are still riding that short-sell in the SMP and are still posting collateral, but instead of happiness, the price of the collateral is much higher, like the potential to have children.

      I don’t think finding the woman is the hard part – and she never needs to know about his past if he perceives she wouldn’t like it and chooses not to share it. The hard part is going to be in Zach’s finding satisfaction in a long-term monogamous bond. That’s the fire he is playing with.

  • Zach

    FYI,

    Re: Unicorns, I come out as a E(N/S)TJ on Myers-Briggs. I say N/S because it flip-flops a little whenever I do the test. So if I’m looking for a girl like me, which is basically true, I’m looking for a female ENTJ or ESTJ. According to this: http://www.theanconas.com/MBTI/mfstats.htm

    Female ESTJ are 6.3% of the population, and female ENTJ are .9%. If you look over the whole chart, a combined 7.2% of the population for women isn’t THAT rare among types.

  • Zach

    @Tasmin

    You keep saying this, but your whole argument rests on the assertion that STRs for men decrease the likelihood of finding LTRs. This is not borne out in the data. In fact, if anything, the causality probably runs the other way, due to pre-selection by women. You’re conflating the fact that a promiscuous past for women decreases their LTR value with the idea that it does the same for men. Nothing has shown this to be true.

  • Zach

    @VD re:MBA

    Career-wise, I don’t actually know yet what brings me joy. I have some ideas as to what might, but until I actually do them I won’t know for sure. I’m getting my MBA because it opens up a lot of possibilities, and gives you the most flexibility at my age (28 when I get it) that you can get. Given how specialized the economy has become, an MBA is one of the few options left that gives you flexibility between careers.

    • @Zach

      In fact, if anything, the causality probably runs the other way, due to pre-selection by women. You’re conflating the fact that a promiscuous past for women decreases their LTR value with the idea that it does the same for men. Nothing has shown this to be true.

      Come on, you’ve seen the posts I’ve written about women getting judgmental re manwhores. Not the women you’re sleeping with, but women who have high potential for long-term mating.

      Although as I’ve said, I think the real danger is that you are tampering with your circuitry in a way that’s going to make you either unfaithful (I know you have never cheated on anyone) or dissatisfied.

  • Sassy, good show re: the big Viking guy. We’re all cheering for you.

    • Sassy, good show re: the big Viking guy. We’re all cheering for you.

      Yes we are! I’m picturing Alexander Skarsgard, oh baby.

  • J

    @INTJ

    Not to mention a lot of women that we would want already have boyfriends.

    True.

    BTW, is that a young Thomas Jefferson?

  • J

    And nearly hung up on me the next day when I called her and couldn’t remember what name I’d given her….

    Can”t say that I blame her; the whole thing sounds pretty shady. How’d you get yourself back into her good graces?

  • J

    @Sassy

    Sounds promising. Good luck!

  • Tasmin

    @Zach
    “You keep saying this, but your whole argument rests on the assertion that STRs for men decrease the likelihood of finding LTRs. This is not borne out in the data. In fact, if anything, the causality probably runs the other way, due to pre-selection by women. You’re conflating the fact that a promiscuous past for women decreases their LTR value with the idea that it does the same for men. Nothing has shown this to be true.”

    I’d like to see that data but lets take your word that STR’s don’t impair a man’s ability to find a LTR. All those single 35-40 y/o guys I know tell me the same thing, well except for the ones in treatment for sex addiction or the ones who have gone celibate or who are taking time with some therapy and self-improvement, but the rest are doing fine as long as you don’t count finding the right LTR woman. But certainly if you are chatting up and eventually banging some girl from the bar that is one night that you are not investing that time and energy in yourself or a potential LTR. All data aside, there is an opportunity cost to acknowledge as well as the fact that you are obviously not happy with the ultimate results of those choices. There is also the fact that there is plenty of data that does not shed a lot of positive light on high N men, including an impaired ability to engage fully emotionally and the actual enjoyment of physical intimacy in LTR’s, so grains of salt through the hourglass.

    Don’t get too hung up on the preselection thing as it relates to pounding randoms you snag from the bar. I won’t deny the status lift is there – but it has its limits and the data also suggests that there is a growing population of women who are pushing back on the high N. I don’t see it, but apparently it is out there.

    Further, you are mistaken if you think the maintenance of your preselection should in any way trump the fact that you are investing in something that does not make you happy. Ride the preselection as long as you want, but if you are not happy then what does it matter? And if you think because getting women in bed is easy for you that there is no investment on your part you are further mistaken. Look, your reported savvy with women is all the preselection fuel you need. There is no need at this point to continue to waste time and energy bedding women with whom you have little, if any, connection or future prospects beyond the immediate physical. Particularly if the actual deed is no longer that rewarding. Which should be a major red flag.

    I am in no way suggesting that high N is equitable in terms of attraction and SMV for men and women. But I think you are mistaken if you believe that running two separate strategies does not present challenges. You make the choice every time to engage in something (casual sex) that makes you unhappy or dissatisfied but slightly less so than not engaging. My take is that your actions indicate that either you value the prospects of sex with the woman in hand (the ONS) higher than the potential sex with a to-be-named (the LTR) woman and/or you refuse to acknowledge the opportunity (and I would argue other) costs embedded in your decisions. And by the way, the cost need not be your chances for a LTR, but your ability to be happy or invest in that LTR woman should she appear. Thats the point of my short-sell. Eating cake and having it too is nothing new.

    And it is always worth exploring that maybe you kinda suck a little. I know some guys who kill it in the casual and have women at their feet who want to go LTR but where maybe all that preselection stuff and ease with separating women from their panties and generally cocky (confident) attitude works against them with some of the higher quality women they truly seek. Just a thought.

    I think VD has some great advice for you. I would only add that you might want to contemplate what it really means to be celibate. It doesn’t have to be as status-reducing, painful, or limiting as I think you believe it to be. Voluntary celibacy can be powerful and can also be a pretty good preselection cocktail if served with the skill set you profess to possess. And in this day and age, where even traditional dating can lead to sex in 3 dates, I think that the reality of your celibacy reaching long-term is rather low.

    • Oops, I see Tasmin scooped me on opportunity cost. I’ll let my comment stand, as this is a concept Zach will need to know for b-school. 🙂

  • INTJ

    @ Zach

    Big problems here. Who exactly am I victimizing here that makes me a “bad” man? I have never lied to a girl to get her into bed. Not once. Never told a girl I was an astronaut, never said I loved her, and I have never falsely promised relationships to girls who I’m not going to date. And I’ve never, ever cheated on someone. Everything they do they do of their own volition. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads. So unless you think there is something inherently immoral or “bad” about consensual sex between two adults, then please get off your high horse. I’ll accept criticism of my lifestyle and sexual choices, but not on the grounds that having casual sex in and of itself makes me less of a good person.

    You’re participating in the normalization of the casual sex culture which causes harm to society, because it makes LTR-forming more difficult.

    That said, I wouldn’t go so far as to say you’re a “bad” man. I simply dislike your behavior.

  • INTJ

    @ Zach re: MBTI

    I’m almost certain you’re an ESTJ, not an ENTJ.

  • INTJ

    @ J

    BTW, is that a young Thomas Jefferson?

    He’s Thomas Paine – quite similar to Thomas Jefferson, but without the hypocrisy over slavery.

  • Mike C

    And it is always worth exploring that maybe you kinda suck a little. I know some guys who kill it in the casual and have women at their feet who want to go LTR but where maybe all that preselection stuff and ease with separating women from their panties and generally cocky (confident) attitude works against them with some of the higher quality women they truly seek. Just a thought.

    About 2 years ago I attended a multi-day work related training course in a major city near my residence and workplace. My super high N player co-worker (200+) attended the training as well. My fiancee (then girlfriend) came up one night to visit, and we all went out to dinner together. After the dinner was over, she and I went our separate ways with the rest of the group in attendance. Ironically, he ended up hooking up with some girl from the training seminar from a different company who actually had a boyfriend but I digress. I asked my girlfriend what her impression/take on him was. She said he seemed excessively cocky and kind of a superficial dickhead. I tried to not let on to her how internally pleased I was with her assessment. Don’t get me wrong….I like the guy, but I wouldn’t introduce my sister to him.

    Earlier in this thread Susan said something about “slinging bullshit”. I’m not really sure *exactly* where that line of demarcation is between just cool confidence with some genuineness and complete over the top “player vibe” of nothing but slinging bullshit. For example cocky/funny can be part of both. But I think that line does exist, and I do believe….perhaps the part of me that retains some idealism….that truly quality women can in fact tell the difference.

    • @Mike C

      For example cocky/funny can be part of both. But I think that line does exist, and I do believe….perhaps the part of me that retains some idealism….that truly quality women can in fact tell the difference.

      I have never watched David DeAngelo’s stuff, so I don’t have a good sense of his style of cocky/funny. But I suspect that it’s all in good fun, teasing negs that get a laugh and an arm punch, etc. I don’t think all cocky/funny is the same – I think there’s a lot of straight out arrogant self-serving narcissism that guys dish out. IOW, asshole Game is taking over Cocky/funny Game. There’s more of an edge to it. IDK, I could be wrong, but the stuff I”m hearing about the things guys do on approach – some of it is pretty rude and self-serving. The fact that it “works” is another conversation, but seriously troubles me.

  • Zach

    @Tasmin

    I’m not suggesting there aren’t opportunity costs. There certainly are. My going home with girl A on one night does preclude me from meeting potential LTR girl B. However, as I’ve mentioned I very, very rarely attempt to take girl A home. I get girl A’s number and move on, and likely call her the week after for a date. That’s been true of my behavior for a long time. In the past, it was for other reasons (takes a lot of time and effort to get a girl home, whereas you can get 4 numbers in one night if that’s what you aim for), but it generally held true. My N is currently 26, and of those only 5 have been ONS with no further attachment or communication. Generally how those have come about is I’ve been extremely drunk and a girl has been extremely sexually aggressive, and so my capacity to make a judgement is dramatically hindered (although my friends have noted most of these girls have been fairly attractive; apparently I have good wasted game). So in short, there are opportunity costs, but those costs rear their head only a small % of the time.

    Re: the research on high-N males inability to date long-term. I will admit that I’ve seen this and am aware of it. I don’t disbelieve it either. However, it’s a psychological shortcoming (I believe not inherent just to me) that I have trouble skirting the “I’m not one of those” vein of thought. As in I tend to believe in my own exceptionalism. Call it arrogance, call it whatever, but it’s certainly there. I’ll have a hard time integrating those abstract numbers into my own life until I see evidence of it in myself. I do have some hope in that department though. I used to watch quite a bit more porn than I do currently (probably once every 2 days or so). I found over time that it desensitized me to sexual encounters with women, and so I have since cut down on my porn-watching substantially. However, it’s very hard to draw that link from casual sexual encounters years ago to sexual encounters today.

    Also, I think there’s been a misconception that I view sex as a be all and end-all. You mention the 3-date rule, and yes, it generally applies pretty well in this day and age. However, I have consistently over time kicked many (willing) girls to the curb after 1 or 2 dates, even though I could have waited and had sex with them, because I didn’t view them as good LTR prospects. So if we go with the idea of 3 dates=sex, then I’ve turned down many, many girls for reasons entirely unrelated to my desire to sleep with them. This is why I believe that going solely LTR oriented will leave me quite celibate, because I am very, very picky about the girls I invite on date 3. (See the whole conversation above about me re: unicorns. I don’t invite a girl for a 3rd date unless I see at least the nub of a horn sticking out). I have one friend in particular, who is quite good with women, but he bangs anything and everything that moves, regardless of age, attractiveness (mostly), or other characteristics. That’s not me. All of my friends regard him as on a nihilistic bender path (drugs and booze don’t help him). I don’t get lumped anywhere near there. I generally get painted as a pretty normal guy who’s just successful with women. Example, a girl (friend) I’ve known for quite a few years said to me a couple months ago “you know, you really do quite well for yourself”. That was it, said with a smile, no judgement. And that’s from a girl who is distinctly not as sociosexually extroverted as I am (she hasn’t been out in 3 months while studying for the EMCAT). I have once been called a manwhore by a girl who I knew about as well as that one, but it was said with a smile and a punch on the arm. Most girls I know as friends view me as no. 1, not no. 2.

    “There is no need at this point to continue to waste time and energy bedding women with whom you have little, if any, connection or future prospects beyond the immediate physical. Particularly if the actual deed is no longer that rewarding. Which should be a major red flag.”

    This to me was the most convincing part of your piece. It made me reflect more on how much the last couple instances of casual sex I’ve had were not really any better than my right hand and a computer screen. The problem I’ve had in the past is that I always have deluded myself into thinking “well that last instance was bad because of X reason or Y reason, but the next one will be better.” However, I’ve been doing it now for enough time to realize the next one won’t be better. I’m going to give your suggestion a shot, and not sleep with any girl who I’ve not been at least dating. We’ll see how it goes. I can’t promise that in 3 months I won’t be dying for a lay, but we’ll see.

    • I’m going to give your suggestion a shot, and not sleep with any girl who I’ve not been at least dating. We’ll see how it goes. I can’t promise that in 3 months I won’t be dying for a lay, but we’ll see.

      ma

      Tasmin succeeded where I could not. I tip my hat to him.

  • Zach

    @INTJ

    Re: MBTI. Last couple tests I’ve taken here: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp have shaded me very, very slightly to the S side. They rate on a %ile scale where you fall to each side, and I was 1% and 3% to S over N.

  • INTJ

    @ Zach

    Re: MBTI. Last couple tests I’ve taken here: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp have shaded me very, very slightly to the S side. They rate on a %ile scale where you fall to each side, and I was 1% and 3% to S over N.

    Yeah sometimes written MBTI tests don’t give conclusive results. I wouldn’t trust anything under 10% on those tests.

    Still, given your description of interactions, and your strategy for getting a girlfriend (i.e. doing actionable things with observable results), I’d definitely type you as an ESTJ.

  • INTJ

    @ Tasmin

    Okay I see we’re basically in agreement then.

  • INTJ

    Oh and when it comes to unicorns in MBTI type, try wanting INFJs. They’re as rare as us INTJs (2-4%)…

  • INTJ

    @ Sassy

    Wow looks like you’ve hit the jackpot. Good luck.

  • Mike C

    I could be wrong, but the stuff I”m hearing about the things guys do on approach – some of it is pretty rude and self-serving.

    Can you share some specific examples?

    • Can you share some specific examples?

      OK, here’s a sampling from the last few months. These are all from women I know IRL. Anecdotal evidence from the Boston bar scene.

      There’s the story of the guy who said, “fuck you, you think you’re so hot I should wine and dine you?” but that was not on approach, it was a text later in the evening. Still pretty crass though.

      One woman got approached by a guy in a bar who walked up and said, “You do lunges.” She said, “Excuse me?” He said, “Nice ass, nice quads. You do lunges.” She was squinting at him, saying “I think you’re shady, dude” when he leaned over and whispered in her ear “I’ve got a huge dick.”

      One guy walked up to a girl and said, “Let’s get this straight. I don’t want to be your boyfriend.” (Completely unsolicited! From a stranger!)

      Another guy walked up and said some pickup line, IDK what. The woman looked at him and said, “I’m not looking for a guy, I’m here with my girlfriends.” He responded, “Dyke!”

      One woman was having dinner with a close male family friend in a restaurant, and at the table next to her was a couple on a date. When her friend went to the john, the guy next to her leaned over and said, “My date is busted. Your date is lame. Give me your number, I’ll text you in an hour.”

      You know, I put a notice on the Contact page that I can’t really respond to emails. It’s made my life easier, but I’m not hearing from women with stories like I used to. I’m going to change that.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    “I don’t think finding the woman is the hard part – and she never needs to know about his past if he perceives she wouldn’t like it and chooses not to share it.”

    Just on that point, I have actually never once been asked about my sexual history by a single girl I’ve gone out with (including my ex).

    And re: opportunity cost. I’m very familiar with it (I took a bunch of econ as an undergrad) and was actually anticipating it being used against me, hence my response to Tasmin about it above.

    • @Zach

      I just want to clarify something re “mom approved.” I do not think you are a bad man or have engaged in bad behavior. I take you at your word that you are honest and forthright in your intentions, and I have no trouble believing that you can get laid every weekend without lying to anyone. You are clearly not a cad, and I believe you have integrity.

      If you were my son, I would sit you down and say what I’ve said here. I’m worried about the long-term effects of this behavior. I worry that you will want a wife and family, and feel perpetually dissatisfied once you get them. That way lies heartbreak, especially if there are children, so I want you to avoid that if possible.

      Choosing the right woman is a big part of that, but so is being the right man. My only interest here is your long-term happiness. I couldn’t care less about these women who choose casual sex. I’m not on Team Woman here. My allegiance is with you. I’m glad you are giving this serious thought, and Tasmin is one of the most thoughtful and articulate commenters ever to grace HUS with his presence. He’s in his late 30s, and he has great wisdom. I’m glad you heard what he had to say.

  • VD

    Can”t say that I blame her; the whole thing sounds pretty shady. How’d you get yourself back into her good graces?

    It does, doesn’t it. Especially when The Perfect Aryan Male and I got involved in a little brawl at another bar later that night, which involved the shattering of a giant glass window and was great fun. At the time I had a weekly newspaper column using one of my pen names and was recognized by several strangers at the bar that night, one of them a pretty brunette who was potentially interesting until this beautiful, slender blonde in a sleeveless leather vest appeared. So, I didn’t recall if I’d given Spacebunny that pen name or the given name.

    She was dubious, of course. It seems women don’t like hearing things like “Hey, we met last night… I’m sorry, but I don’t remember what name I gave you.” Fortunately, the op/ed editor had just run a big half-page editorial on the Unabomber’s manifesto that he’d asked me to write, which got more attention than my usual column. So I was able to refer her to that and she realized I was not so much sketchy as unusual.

    It was a weird form of local semi-celebrity. Most people in the city wouldn’t recognize you from the column, but random people would on a regular basis. My friends just about died laughing one night when a stripper giving one of the guys a lap dance suddenly stopped, pointed at me, and said “hey, you’re the guy from the paper!”

  • Desiderius

    MikeC,

    “Can you share some specific examples?”

    I found myself standing next to an honest-to-goodness ten this weekend, and after making some light conversation – I let her teach me what falafel and humus are – I told her I write for a website on dating and asked if she ever gets approached by men.

    She said not very often, but when she does its invariably very crass and condescending. She gave me a couple examples like Susan’s. This woman had no bitch shield whatsoever.

  • Desiderius

    “You’ll find that during the day or in random encounters, you’re going to need “good guy” Game (not to be confused with Nice Guy TM). Confident, not cocky. Believe me, the preselection will come through loud and clear based on your SMV and your awareness of it.

    The guys will probs tell you to ignore my advice, but it’s worth experimenting with. You have nothing to lose, as you can work on this skill while continuing your usual approach.”

    No, I’d second it. Generating all kinds of positive vibes with it now, just need to translate those into something tangible.* Given what else Zach brings to the table that I don’t, it should be a no-brainer.

    With the caveat that the brain isn’t always the operative organ in female decision-making, even the smart ones, and he would be working against a powerful norm right now. I’d be interested to hear if he gets any flakes with this approach.

    Younger might actually be better – I think they’re likely more resistant to the norm and realistic/resilient in general due to being post-crash.

    * – starting from Niceguy seems almost to require a passage through Dickguy to get to Goodman.

    • With the caveat that the brain isn’t always the operative organ in human decision-making, even the smart ones, and he would be working against a powerful norm right now. I’d be interested to hear if he gets any flakes with this approach.

      Fixed.

      * — starting from Niceguy seems almost to require a passage through Dickguy to get to Goodman.

      No it does not, assuming the brain is engaged to help with the task. That’s just rationalizing bad behavior, and I don’t accept it.

  • Desiderius

    Zach,

    “As in I tend to believe in my own exceptionalism. Call it arrogance, call it whatever, but it’s certainly there.”

    A lot of the brain gets wired by 5. If you were like me, you were a very precocious kid, likely exceptionally charming as well as bright. It just gets hardwired in there. I’ve never worried about a woman’s N, because, hey once she gets to know me, who can compare?

    I can talk myself out of it but its always there.

  • Plain Jane

    Sassy, lucky girl, don’t let that one go!

  • Plain Jane

    Maggie, “I have a daughter who will be entering college next year so I have a lot of concerns about this. What baffles me is why these young women think a LTR would be more time-consuming and more likely to interfere with their goals than STRs would. In my twenties I worked full time, went to school and had a LTR. While the career and education were rewarding, the greatest long-lasting pleasure and rewards have come from my LTR (marriage).”

    Maggie, your LTR was a legal marriage, which is vastly different from a vague non-marital LTR.

    In college LTR would mean you are dating only one person for say a year, maybe 2. With that comes emotional investment with huge risk of breaking up (and they ALWAYS break up). So the heartbreak and depression after break up can and does interfere with school and work.

    On the other hand STRs are less serious, less emotional investment, and less recovery time after the two decide to “move on”.

    STRs are preferred because less damage control is need.

  • Desiderius

    Bastiat Blogger,

    “I think one could view the SMP as a kind of video game with different levels of difficulty. The levels may demand new or improved skillsets in order to progress to satisfying levels of play, but it is the pursuit of challenging goals that is the source of happiness, not the final destinations themselves.

    Dissatisfaction with one level may mean that it has become boring and repetitive—the challenges and successes that once were inspiring may mean little to you now. But there may be a way to move forward by seeing higher levels of play available and to use these as motivations for accelerating a self-development process.”

    Beating the end boss = a hallway full of photos of your 24 amazing grandkids like my grandparents had.

    One chump’s take.

  • Desiderius

    Good God, that’s a lot of spam, even for a special snowflake.

    Zach, check this out. He was banging the King’s mistress at 21, and ended up with a helluva wife and life, including kicking the Sun King’s ass all over Europe.

    Churchill made his living as a writer throughout his life, and he’s always a great read.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Everyone

    Thanks! I just got back in from another date with him tonight. He and I have also set up plans for this weekend all ready as well. I see great things ahead.

    @ Susan Walsh

    He actually looks a lot like Prince William. Hubba Hubba!

  • jadoescher

    So the idea is to sleep with the sociopath, then try to break up with him (while sleeping with him a few more times) and after you succeed find a nice beta to soothe your weary soul.

  • J

    @INTJ

    Huh? I think this is the first portrait I’ve seen of Paine. I’ve only seen the older portrait of Jefferson, but I think when he was younger he’d have looked sort of like that.

    I agree that Jefferson was really crazy about slavery and race. He was bizarrely ambivalent or at least his negative feelings didn’t stop him from owning slaves.

    A few years back we took the kids to Monticello. A truly amazing place, but knowing how it was built made me feeling sort of dirty.

  • Huh? I think this is the first portrait I’ve seen of Paine. I’ve only seen the older portrait of Jefferson, but I think when he was younger he’d have looked sort of like that.

    Old period men with wigs look similar to me so I would had guessed the same.

    I agree that Jefferson was really crazy about slavery and race. He was bizarrely ambivalent or at least his negative feelings didn’t stop him from owning slaves.

    And having children with then…

  • Just1X

    @Sassy

    “He actually looks a lot like Prince William. Hubba Hubba!”

    You know? This is a phrase that I never expected to see.

    Wingnut’s kid as a sex symbol – weird, just plain mindblowing.

    That said, I hope it works out for you both…

    • Wingnut’s kid as a sex symbol — weird, just plain mindblowing.

      I prefer Harry myself, but I’ve heard he is not actually related to Wingnut…

  • Ion

    “best I can recall Ion loves to go back and forth with Obsidian…..but again very, very little in terms of actual interactions with real men in real life. ”

    I won’t comment anymore.

    • @Ion

      I won’t comment anymore.

      NO! Please, please don’t say that. I value your commentary here highly. Ugh, I am so frustrated that women feel this is a hostile place!

  • Mike C


    @Ion

    I won’t comment anymore.

    NO! Please, please don’t say that. I value your commentary here highly. Ugh, I am so frustrated that women feel this is a hostile place!

    With all due respect, this really is a crock of bullshit. I did NOT attack Ion at all with my statement or say anything negative or hostile. I simply described the content of many of her comments after you held her up as an example when I asked for examples of commenters who describe actual real life flesh and blood interactions with men.

    Go back to my comment and I challenge what part constitutes *hostile*. Seriously, it is just ridiculous.

    • @Mike C

      You did not say anything hostile about Ion. Although she may disagree with the idea that she’s here to spar with Obsidian. I think most people think of that as a chore rather than a good time.

      The hostile vibe is not down to any one person, remark or thread. It’s been an issue from the start here, and I’ve already said that I prefer to keep working on it rather than make this an echo chamber. I don’t think it will ever be perfect, but I’d like to reduce the butting of heads.

  • Ted D

    Maggie – Quote from Plain Jane: “STRs are preferred because less damage control is need.”

    STRs are preferred because they are easier than a real, honest, loving relationship.

    There, I fixed it for her. 😉

    Sure, any LTR may end, which will cause heartache. So what? Heartache is a part of life, and one that young people should learn to cope with as early in life as possible. Seems to me that college is just about the perfect time to do it since they are learning everything else that is supposed to teach them how to be an adult. And, what if that college romance doesn’t end? What if they manage to make it out the other side and marry? Have a family?

    I simply DO NOT understand why anyone would “put off” getting serious with someone other than laziness or fear. I’m not saying every college student should be “going steady”, but I also don’t think they should completely avoid relationships either. And I see no logical reason why the solution to that problem is drunken hookups. Even PJ seems to be against drunk people having sex, so who exactly is promoting such stupid behavior?

  • INTJ

    @ Ion

    I won’t comment anymore.

    No that isn’t what Mike C wanted. He was simply asking for detailed anecdotes about women meeting men, and Susan put forth you as an example, but Mike C pointed out that you weren’t an example of this. That doesn’t mean he dislikes your comments. He just wants more commenters who post detailed “field reports” akin to some of the ones Sassy has posted.

    Damnit I wish the sexes didn’t communicate so differently. A lot of the miscommunication would go away.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    You did not say anything hostile about Ion. Although she may disagree with the idea that she’s here to spar with Obsidian. I think most people think of that as a chore rather than a good time.

    The hostile vibe is not down to any one person, remark or thread. It’s been an issue from the start here, and I’ve already said that I prefer to keep working on it rather than make this an echo chamber. I don’t think it will ever be perfect, but I’d like to reduce the butting of heads.

    Obviously, I’ve been guilty of this (including my recent totally unnecessary debate with VD), so I’m being somewhat hypocritical when I ask you to clamp down on it. I also know many of us male commenters often resort to whining, which makes HUS more hostile than it used to be.

    However, I would argue that Obsidian’s comments are especially egregious, as they’re often personal in nature and come off as very hostile. My suggestion is that you ask him to use his blog as a platform for his views, rather than the HUS comments thread.

  • Mike C

    You did not say anything hostile about Ion.

    Right….I didn’t….which is why I think using the term “hostile” in a reply to her where she directly referenced my comment was a bit much. Speaking bluntly, I understand and appreciate that you’ve done a lot over the last 12 months to change the “tone” of discussion to better match your primary constituency. That’s all good. But I think you have to be cognizant of going too far in the assumption that any time a female commenter gets a little butthurt over anything it is because some “bad” men are being “hostile”. Just because someone has a vagina, doesn’t mean they automatically have a reason to be annoyed or upset over something.

    The hostile vibe is not down to any one person, remark or thread. It’s been an issue from the start here, and I’ve already said that I prefer to keep working on it rather than make this an echo chamber. I don’t think it will ever be perfect, but I’d like to reduce the butting of heads.

    Well….the crux of the issue there is men speak bluntly without much regard to how it might make someone feel. If there is one thing hopefully you’ve learned by having guys like myself, Ted D, etc. it is more about the male communication style. As long as you have male participation, especially more assertive males, you’ll have some contention. Look at it as a NECESSARY COMPONENT of back and forth discussion JUST AS YOU HAVE communicated to me that the differing male and female goals are necessary to sexual tension.

    • @Mike C

      To be clear, I did not mean to suggest that your one comment to Ion is what makes HUS a hostile place. It’s a cumulative effect that I’m painfully aware of. FWIW, I view the male commenters as part of my primary constituency. They have as much right to comment, and are as welcome here as anyone. I apologize for giving you that impression, I expressed that poorly.

      But I think you have to be cognizant of going too far in the assumption that any time a female commenter gets a little butthurt over anything it is because some “bad” men are being “hostile”. Just because someone has a vagina, doesn’t mean they automatically have a reason to be annoyed or upset over something.

      That’s a valid point. There is no value in my going too far in another direction.

      Look at it as a NECESSARY COMPONENT of back and forth discussion JUST AS YOU HAVE communicated to me that the differing male and female goals are necessary to sexual tension.

      This is brilliant. Reading this was a real “aha” moment for me. I’m clipping that for future reference.

  • Just1X

    @Susan #580

    ahhh, the old half-blood prince rumour…we are all sworn to secrecy over here

    • @JUST1X

      Back to 1X?

      ahhh, the old half-blood prince rumour…we are all sworn to secrecy over here

      Wasn’t there a dashing ginger Master of the Horses or some such?

  • which makes HUS more hostile than it used to be.

    Oh boy, I don’t think you were around for Doug1. I don’t know, if anything I think HUS is less hostile these days. I know I don’t participate much, but I lurk quite a bit and this is just my impression.

  • Ted D

    Just1X – Nice to see the old tag back. This time I didn’t think about my cell signal when I saw it. 😉

  • @Just1X

    Lee Van Cleef?

  • J

    Wingnut’s kid as a sex symbol – weird, just plain mindblowing.

    He’s a prince. People automatically preface that with “handsome” whether it’s true or not. It’s like “beautiful heiress.” Titless, long-nosed, cock-eyed Paris Hilton is a beautiful heiress because there’s no such thing as being an ugly heiress.

  • J

    @VD

    Well, you had a pen name! That’s a DHV if ever there was one!

    @Ana

    Old period men with wigs look similar to me so I would had guessed the same.

    LOL. Glad it’s not just me.

    And having children with them…

    You know that Sally Hemings was Jefferson’s dead wife’s half sister? Her mother Elizabeth was conceived on the boat from Africa by the ship’s captain. When Capt. Hemmings discovered that the woman he had raped was pregnant, he attempted to unsucessfully from purchase her from the Wyles family that had bought her at auction fresh off the boat.

    Elizabeth grew up with the Wayles kids and was maid to Martha Wayles (See http://www.nndb.com/people/559/000126181/ for a portrait of Martha.) Elizabeth was given to Martha as a wedding present after having been impregnated by Martha’s father. Martha was later widowed as a young woman; Jefferson was her second husband. She brought Elizabeth and her daughther Sally with her to Monticello. Elizabeth was appointed chatelaine (head housekeeper) and Sally, Martha’s own half sister, was eventually nanny to the Jefferson kids, her actual half-neices and nephews.

    I posted the link to Martha’s portrait because it is the closest thing we have to a picture of Sally Hemmings. They are said to have looked a lot alike.
    Pretty freakin’ incestuous, if you ask me!

  • Iggles

    J – Whoa! I didn’t know about the family ties.. Pretty gross and sad regarding generations of rape (Sally’s mother and grandmother 🙁 )

  • LOL. Glad it’s not just me.

    I often joke with hubby that all white people look similar to me. I know is racist but what can I do I need to see more to tell them apart. The other day I though some guy’s new girlfriend was his ex-wife an I though they got back together in my defense most people told me they indeed look similar, the guy likes them bitchy, skinny and blond…good luck with the clone!

    You know that Sally Hemings was Jefferson’s dead wife’s half sister?

    Yeah I knew all those details the Sally Hemmings “scandal” was discussed everywhere in my country mostly people wondering what was the big deal about it was, since Spaniards married and had children with the natives and slaves pretty much since they left the boat we didn’t found it surprising, but then different cultures and all that.

  • Carmen

    Re: more detailed anecdotes from women,

    As a 19 year old university student, I go out 1-3 times a week and so do most of my friends. I’m happy to give anecdotes, I’ve got plenty, but the reason I don’t is because I usually think it will not add anything to the discussion. Or I simply don’t know where/how to (start) talking about it. But apparently people would be like to get more field reports from women, so I’ll keep a log book on nights out from now on lol.

    Concerning HUS being a hostile place, I feel some of the male comments can be rather aggressive or excessively defensive, but I got used to it and think that’s just the way they communicate. The problem is that female readers don’t realize this and will take everything personally, because in real life, the males who comment would probably not talk to them like that. Being more careful considering womens feelings and all that. Not necessary for online blog comments.

    I just think female readers shouldn’t feel ‘afraid’ of the male commenters
    here, just accept it and comment!

  • Just1X

    @Ted – good to know, I appreciate it mate.

    @Ana – oh noes! It’s John Wayne with an underlever. What says ‘Justice’ more than that image?

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    I believe that you may be referring to this guy; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hewitt

    or (check the URL – he claims to be the son of god, or some such)
    http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60313

  • Just1X

    @Carmen – please do continue to comment. I don’t come here for a sausage fest…I’m sure that I’m not alone.

  • Sai

    @Ted D
    “I simply DO NOT understand why anyone would “put off” getting serious with someone other than laziness or fear.”
    I may disappoint you with this… I was lazy. I decided that when I wasn’t in the lab or typing or tearing out my hair/studying I was going to spend time on something I really liked (video games and archive bingeing). If I had to learn about heartbreak I didn’t want it to be at the same time I had to learn about (your least favorite equation here). Then again, I viewed my classmates as co-workers.

    @J
    I learned something today! 🙂
    It was a very sad something, so maybe I should have typed 🙁

  • Ted D

    Sai – I’m not disappointed at all, you pursued other interests and that is fine. But many Young women often use the excuse that LTRs are too hard in college as cover for bad/promiscuous behavior and that is what I take issue with. If a woman wants to sex every jock on campus, I’m good wi it. As long as she simply admits she is doing it because she wants to bang jocks, not because dating is too hard.

  • J

    @Iggles and Ana

    People owing/being owned by relatives is just mind-bogglingly bizarre. I mean when Thomas Jefferson died, his daughters INHERITED their aunt and cousins! That must have been common, yet no one seemed to realize it was wrong.

    Asd to different cultures, Ana, you’re probably right. In some respects, the US is very puritanical. Jefferson’s affair with “Dusky Sally” as the Northern papers called her was scandalous when it happened. It’s only in the last 25 years so or that people have discussed it publicly.

  • Escoffier

    1) The Jefferson-Hemmings “affair” is treated as settled fact today when in fact it is not settled at all.

    2) The idea that “no one seemed to realize it was wrong” is itself flatly wrong. Virtually the entire Founding generation knew that slavery was wrong.

  • Just1X

    In the words of a great (fictional) politician,

    Francis Urquhart – ‘F U’ – “You might very well think that; I couldn’t possibly comment”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Urquhart

  • @Ana – oh noes! It’s John Wayne with an underlever. What says ‘Justice’ more than that image?

    Oh I see it now.

    People owing/being owned by relatives is just mind-bogglingly bizarre. I mean when Thomas Jefferson died, his daughters INHERITED their aunt and cousins! That must have been common, yet no one seemed to realize it was wrong.

    You need to remember that this concept were different back in the day and that in the great scheme of things they might be safer with their relatives than being sold out to strangers.

    Asd to different cultures, Ana, you’re probably right. In some respects, the US is very puritanical. Jefferson’s affair with “Dusky Sally” as the Northern papers called her was scandalous when it happened. It’s only in the last 25 years so or that people have discussed it publicly.

    I mentioned before you came here that in our cultures Sally would had become the defacto wife (and even married we didn’t had any laws against interratial marriage for the longest time) and freed. We had a similar case with a slave called Xica Da silva in Brazil:
    Chica da Silva[1], sometimes written as Xica da Silva (Francisca da Silva de Oliveira, c. 1732-1796) was a Brazilian woman who became famous for becoming rich and powerful though having been born into slavery. Her life has been a source of inspiration for many works in television, films, theater and literature. She is popularly known as the slave who became a queen.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chica_da_Silva

    I don’t blame Puritanism though I think the big difference was that the puritans came with white women (wives, sisters, cousins…) and the natural choice to make sure they keep getting married their white female relatives was to keep the competition at bay by shaming interracial relationships, the old Sarai vs Agar rivalry, YMMV.

  • Plain Jane

    “Sure, any LTR may end, which will cause heartache. So what? Heartache is a part of life, and one that young people should learn to cope with as early in life as possible. Seems to me that college is just about the perfect time to do it since they are learning everything else that is supposed to teach them how to be an adult. And, what if that college romance doesn’t end? What if they manage to make it out the other side and marry? Have a family?”

    We weren’t born yet, but back in the 1950s parents encouraged their teens to date more than one person and not get serious and go steady because it was felt at the time that going steady might result in problems; sex being one, but among others – getting too emotionally involved and thus neglecting studies, and of course a fear of marrying too young, which might result in dropping out of school, thus possibly ruining one’s future.

    I think a similar reasoning is applied by today’s college students.

  • Desiderius

    “No it does not, assuming the brain is engaged to help with the task. That’s just rationalizing bad behavior, and I don’t accept it.”

    I was speaking of attitudes and body language more so than behavior. It’s a calibration thing.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “I will also say that as a general rule, narcissism makes even constructive criticism less welcome, and less likely to be effective. Increasing numbers of female narcissists is going to exacerbate this tendency.”

    The problem is not limited to females, or to narcissists. I’ll hit on this in my response to your request in the hot and mean thread, but i don’t have time to write tonight.

    The Greek hypo- means “under”, as in hypodermic needle, and crite is the root from which we get criticism. A person who is resistant to criticism, whether critical introspection or constructive criticism from a trusted other will inevitably end up a hypocrite in practice.

  • J

    @Esco

    1) The Jefferson-Hemmings “affair” is treated as settled fact today when in fact it is not settled at all.

    IIRC, there’s DNA evidence linking some of Sally Heming’s descendents to Jefferson.

    2) The idea that “no one seemed to realize it was wrong” is itself flatly wrong. Virtually the entire Founding generation knew that slavery was wrong.

    Yet, they did it.

  • J

    Re #606

    Yikes! Is it possible to less than 50% of your DNA from your mother? That’s not a son; it’s a clone!

  • J

    @Ana

    Interesting link–particularly the part about slave children being freed and granted noble rank. That sure didn’t happen here. IIRC, a buddy of Jefferson’s attempted to free and marry the enslaved mother of his kids, whom he wanted to inherit his land. His white family killed his slave family and perhaps him as well.

  • Interesting link–particularly the part about slave children being freed and granted noble rank. That sure didn’t happen here.
    I know, I know a lot of your issues would had been so different, not that we don’t have some racial issues but they are meaningless family quarrel by comparison.

    IIRC, a buddy of Jefferson’s attempted to free and marry the enslaved mother of his kids, whom he wanted to inherit his land. His white family killed his slave family and perhaps him as well.

    Well that might explain why old Jeffy didn’t married Sally and freed his kids he might know for sure what will happen to all of them if he even tried. One never knows from our modern POV many things look bad but at the time it might had been the best or/and only choice, YMMV

  • @SW

    It’s been an issue from the start here, and I’ve already said that I prefer to keep working on it rather than make this an echo chamber.

    HUS is already a PC echo chamber. I noticed that from the start. Tolerance, civility, and anonymity seldom coexist together. Ms. Charm’s abrupt departure was proof of that.

    As such, this place will probably never be “for young women” to participate comfortably and freely in.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Mike C:

    I would like to hear more from women who kind of use more “normal” (for lack of a better term) ways of meeting men, and it doesn’t have to be dominant men, it could be pure beta, just ACTUAL interactions. Something like I went to bar X over the weekend, and guy A approached me and started a conversation. Here were my impressions, here was my follow-up, and here is why.

    I’m interested to know why you immediately dismissed my FRs as simply “personal details about various guys”. 🙂 I’d like to think that I’ve contributed some amount of insight during my time here!

    If you want a report of an actual interaction, I remember one I reported here last summer. I remember it quite starkly:

    SayWhaat: I’m a virgin.
    Brooklyn Dude: What the FUCK??

  • SayWhaat

    @ Anacaona:

    and I rewatched Avatar the last airbender

    LOVE! When Legend of Korra came out I made my boyfriend start watching ATLA so he could get caught up with everything. At first he went along just to please me, but he’s Buddhist so I knew that the story would draw him in quickly.

    When he buzzes my apartment door I ask him, “what’s the password?” “The White Lotus!”

    XD

  • SayWhaat

    @ INTJ:

    Not to mention a lot of women that we would want already have boyfriends.

    If I can find an Opera Singing Buddhist in New York, you can find a girlfriend in bumfuck Texas.

  • SayWhaat

    Btw INTJ, I hope you don’t take my comments too personally. I actually really like you. 🙂

    You and Coops just need a kick in the bum once in a while. 😉

  • Mike C

    I’m interested to know why you immediately dismissed my FRs as simply “personal details about various guys”. 🙂 I’d like to think that I’ve contributed some amount of insight during my time here!

    Dismissal??? Ummm…..I was *ACKNOWLEDGING* that you were one of the few if only person on that list who has in fact “shared personal details about various guys” and not just talked about abstract preferences and hypotheticals. I sure hope you read those legal briefs more accurately 🙂

  • @SayWhaat
    Heh white lotus as a password is very clever and fun. Love that show Legend of Korra was underwhelming IMO not bad but not as good as the original. Also what happened to Zuco’s mother!!???

    I sure hope you read those legal briefs more accurately

    ZING!

  • SayWhaat

    @ Mike C:

    Haha, my bad! In my defense it is 12:30 am and I am le tired.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Ana:

    Supposedly they’re addressing the issue of Zuko’s mother in the comic books (“the Promise”, something or other).

    Legend of Korra was jaw-droppingly amazing as an animated work of art, but there were too few episodes to properly pace and flesh out the story.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Btw INTJ, I hope you don’t take my comments too personally. I actually really like you. 🙂

    Don’t worry. It’s hard for me take comments from a cute glasses-wearing pink elephant personally. 😉

  • Zach

    @Susan

    “Field Report” on Seattle STEM girl. We went out last night to a bar with some of her friends. We flirted a lot, she was touching me all over, and then she went home early with a girlfriend. I was a bit confused, but then found out (from her) that she thought I was going to be in town tonight as well and that we’d go out for dinner or something. Take from it what you will. I hate miscommunication.

    • @Zach

      Thanks for reporting back in. I have to say I’m a bit relieved she didn’t rip your clothes off at the bar.

      Hard to say what would have happened tonight, but it sounds like she finds you extremely attractive and figured it would be fun to know you better. You never know where people will end up geographically.

  • Desiderius

    Zach,

    ““Field Report” on Seattle STEM girl. We went out last night to a bar with some of her friends. We flirted a lot, she was touching me all over, and then she went home early with a girlfriend. I was a bit confused, but then found out (from her) that she thought I was going to be in town tonight as well and that we’d go out for dinner or something. Take from it what you will. I hate miscommunication.”

    She’s probably trying to show value (that’s she’s not that kind of girl – its an LTR fitness signal). The (good) women are usually ahead of the men on these matters, so she may have already figured out many of the things we’ve been talking about.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Out of curiosity, I spent a little part of today on a project (took the day off for Bschool apps and was bored). I went back through all of the girls I’d slept with and rated each one on a 1-10 scale (with half-point increments), and broke them down into categories to see what I’d see. Ratings were my own, with some input from friends (not live input, but from comments they’ve made in the past). Yes, this may seem objectifying, but it’s live data from the “field”. It also lends some serious credence to dating…

    Overall Range was from 3-8.5

    All:
    N=26
    Avg=5.75
    Median=5.75
    StDev=1.33

    Sex on first night (none of these were after dates, some were ONS, some turned into longer term hookups):
    N=12
    Avg=5.55
    Median=5.5
    StDev=1.15

    Hookups (didn’t date these girls, didn’t sleep with them on first night, but were consistent hookups)
    N=7
    Avg=4.9
    Median=5
    StDev=0.8

    Dated (girls I either was in a relationship with, or on a relationship path with, and took out on dates, not just “come over” at 2 AM)

    N=7
    Avg=6.92
    Median=7.25
    StDev=1.24

    Also, if you asked me to recount the 5 best looking girls I’ve ever hooked up with (including anything from makeout to sex), 4 of those 5 would be girls in the “Dating” category.

    Take from this what you will. There’s obviously some self-selection in the dating category (ie I’m only going to take out girls I’m highly attracted to), but I think there is something to take from it, as if you count how attractive she was as a “score” (not saying I am), then it seems dating is the best route to “win” there.

    • @Zach

      Take from this what you will. There’s obviously some self-selection in the dating category (ie I’m only going to take out girls I’m highly attracted to), but I think there is something to take from it, as if you count how attractive she was as a “score” (not saying I am), then it seems dating is the best route to “win” there.

      Fascinating, thanks for sharing that. Have you considered including that with your apps? 🙂 Nice work.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    I obviously plan to include it as an example of my outstanding Excel skills. On a different note, I think it also shows that the “meat” of the girls most high N guys are hooking up with are average looking, or slightly above average, ie in the 5-6 range. Of the couple of my friends who are similarly high N I’d say their numbers are pretty much the same. Most of the girls are in the 5-6 range. Even guys I know who get with very attractive girls (and I’d put myself in the lower end of that category) spend most of their time hooking up with 5-6s. I’d argue strongly that the more attractive women, at least most of them, are using their sexual market power to largely opt out of the hookup and casual sex culture. Just my two cents.

    • @Zach

      I’d argue strongly that the more attractive women, at least most of them, are using their sexual market power to largely opt out of the hookup and casual sex culture. Just my two cents.

      Thanks, that is my observation as well. I just had a very pretty woman tell me that she went on a few dates with a guy, he pushed for sex. She really liked him, but only if he was open to a relationship. So she asked. He said, “Why not just enjoy each other’s company for now? I really like hanging out with you.” She replied, “Not good enough,” grabbed her purse, and walked out the door. She’s a 9-10, truly top of the line. Her number is 3, age 24.

  • How disappointing, that after over 100 cotnmems, we have had mostly arguments over whether the phenomenon even exists.I will do my part to increase the signal-to-noise ratio by ignoring all posts that claim that nice guys are dishonest, poor lovers, fat and poorly-groomed, stay in too much, etc.But we do need to define our terms.When I was in college, a number of good-looking women came onto me in blatant ways, including crawling into bed with me, literally dragging me home from a party, challenging me to prove that I wasn’t too drunk to have sex, and having a wardrobe malfunction and asking me to fix it. I never hooked up with any of them because I didn’t know how. There are so many social taboos about sex, that every possible step forward seemed to me like doing something wrong. But the woman will, in my experience, seldom initiate anything beyond first contact, and the man always has to be the one to push past that boundary where you realize you are going to have sex and start taking clothes off. If the man doesn’t know how to do it, it won’t happen.This is part of the nice-guy phenomenon a guy who doesn’t know how to switch from normal social interaction to sexual interaction. It’s tricky. It’s hard for men to figure out whether a woman wants them to come on to her or not, and the costs of getting it wrong can be very high. Studies consistently indicate that men are unaware of signals that women think are obvious.But I think there’s more to it than that.I lifted weights very seriously for a few years. I was very successful with women during those years. It seems clear this was because of being muscular, yet I’ve never encountered a woman, either one I dated or one I talked to, who would admit that she was attracted by muscular men. Talking with other bodybuilders, I heard the same story women would deny being attracted to muscular men, but muscular men had great success with women. This is one datapoint indicating that women do not admit or even know what attracts them. My theory is that what kind of man attracts them is an important part of their self-image.Women or, at least, moderately good-looking women, which is really the ones we’re talking about have a much, much, much easier time getting dates+sex than men. They can still get dates even if they maintain a completely false narrative about who they are & what they’re attracted to. This means that, if a man and a woman have an equal preference for a particular self-image, the cost to the man of keeping his preferred self-image rather than doing honest after-action reviews, is much higher than the cost to the woman. So the woman is much likelier to hold onto whatever notions about herself, women, men, and interactions between them, most please her, because discarding those notions for more truthful ones wouldn’t get her many more dates.Women do more detailed speculations about what every action of some guy means , and I don’t know how to resolve the above theory with this observation, other than to say that men are motivated to be honest with themselves about how to attract a woman, while women are motivated to be honest with themselves about how to keep a man.

  • cat After reading this I am left woredning whether it is possible to rehabilitate a psychopath – convince them that there are internal/ external rules they should follow to govern their aggression? Not from the evidence so far, trying to rehabilitate psychopaths seems to only make them into more effective psychopaths (meaning it teaches them more tools to manipulate people with in one rehabilitation experiment that Ronson discusses more of the treated psychopaths go on to reoffend than those left untreated ). The most effective psychopaths don’t end up in jail because they either find sanctioned/celebrated ways to express their psychopathy or are clever enough regarding external rules to work around them. And, of course, there’s the bigger social issue that we don’t actually have any consistent external rules that make psychopathy a negative thing with negative consequences. In fact, we quite often reward it (with million dollar bonuses, for instance). Jon Ronson does discuss the prevalence of psychopathy amongst high level corporate executives, as well as there being no effective treatment. The other thing is that one could easily argue that a lot of people who end up in prison suffer from some form of impulse control problem but not all of them are psychopaths. What makes a psychopath different is that he feels no remorse for having hurt others and, if he or she is a sadist, they’ll also take pleasure in hurting and manipulating others. This is why in both psychiatry and the judicial/prison systems that genuine remorse is seen as a sign that someone recognizes the damage that their actions caused and is now suffering themselves (they feel empathy for the victim, not just sorry for themselves) and won’t repeat the behaviour again. Psychopaths can and often do fake remorse and it’s not that they’re unaware of the external rules, they just don’t think they apply to them (for instance, the psychopath that Jonson befriends in Broadmoore is only in the psychiatric unit because he was trying to circumvent the rules by pretending to be crazy as a means to avoid the consequences of his actions and because he thought he could outsmart the system it backfired but he’s still actually playing the same game where he positions himself as a victim of the actions of others instead of taking responsibility for his actions .once again, he shows no remorse just self pity and a desire to make others feel sorry for him).There’s a pretty good British documentary out there called I, Psychopath that focuses on Sam Vaknin, a self proclaimed psychopath and Narcissist (and self proclaimed expert on NPD) in the ultimate narcissistic twist he manages to make narcissism both lucrative and also affirm his belief in his own superiority BECAUSE of his NPD.